FAA Fatigue Rules

Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon

MikeOH58 said:
Used to commute 45 mins both ways to HPN...With ZERO traffic and assuming I fall asleep as soon as I get home thats less than 6 and a half hours of rest on a minimum rest day...Throw in the normal necessities of being a human like showering, using the bathroom and eating, and it's less than 6 hours...

9 Hours, uninterrupted rest behind closed doors would be amazing.
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The company can't control where you live though; asking them to give you 9 hours behind your house/crashpad door is unreasonable unless they provide the housing.
 
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations

Leaves commuting alone. Increases rest by an hour. Reduces most duty time a bit. Odd that maximum legs in duty time were not addressed though.
 
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon

FlyGuy9k4 said:
YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THE 10HR MAX FLIGHT TIME A DAY...:mad:
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The science does prove that it is safe to fly above 8 hours with less segments and duty time.

Nick said:
Is this it?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/FAA_2010_22626.pdf

The official proposal?

I skimmed through the charts at the end. I must say, if that's the proposal, I'm completely unsatisfied with the complexity and the ineffectiveness of what they want the new rules to be.
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From what I see the charts are EXACTLY the same as in the ALPA Flight Time/Duty Time Policy which is based on hard science.

:)

This is a great day :)
 
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon

Did commuting just die in this proposal? Or did I read it wrong?
 
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations

No it does address maximum legs in duty time. That chart is EXACTLY the same at the ALPA FT/DT Policy.
 
I didn't see anything about commuting. I think the airlines just have to educate crewmembers on possible effects of commuting in regards to fatigue.
 
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon

Commuting was left alone. It is our job as professionals to show up well rested to work was the view of the ARC.

Once again a great day!
 
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon

I am glad to finally see this happen.

'Bout time. Today is very much a good day.
 
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon

True...

But it has been the farthest we have ever been.
 
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon

Ya know what I'm digging on? That 'no person who feels or suspects that they are suffering from the effects of fatigue shall continue the operation.'

Fatigue not only as a protected right but a mandated provision.

Woot!:rawk:

Edit: Okay, that was in the ALPA resolution and I haven't reconciled that to the FAA NPRM yet. I imagine something like that is in there, though.
 
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon

I like what I see... More so I think the RSV section is some what confusing to read. But if I read it right about SHORT Call/STANDBY I am excited about the rest requirements between those duty times..... Again I am not sure if I read it right, but I see 14 hours of rest between a short call rsv assignment???
 
I'm still trying to pick through the thing and see if standups/highspeeds are legal. I've never done one in my career thus far but I can't find anywhere in this proposal that rules them out.

10PM report for a two-leg assignment is good until 8:15AM the next morning.

There are things in this that I do like and things that I don't.

As complicated as the grid is, I'm glad they concluded that 5, 6, 7 legs is obviously more fatiguing than 1 or 2. Or that reporting for duty at 5AM is going to leave a crew more tired by 2PM than showing up for work at 8AM would have. If the airlines have to buy the software to construct trips to meet these new requirements, so be it. If we have to carry around a half page chart in our Jepps to reference if we hit delays, so be it.


This is where I nearly pooped my pants:

. . . the FAA believes that time in transit is not rest.
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Am I really reading that?!

WOW! :D
 
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations

First it is only an NPRM, and the last 30 pages or so are about an estimate of what it will cost an Air carrier to implement the differents options :D.

I did not read everything in details, but in function of your flying ( night, day, reserve , when you start on duty, line holder, what kind of rest, etc... ), you are going to need some kind of computer to figure how much you can fly, how long on duty you can be, etc... :insane:
 
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations

A Life Aloft said:
Leaves commuting alone. Increases rest by an hour. Reduces most duty time a bit. Odd that maximum legs in duty time were not addressed though.
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It increases rest by a lot.... Stating that when you are in the hotel van to and from the hotel it is a DHD and counts towards the duty time.... Thus you no longer lose that time when going to and from a hotel.... It also says it is working to make sure you have the ability to SLEEP 8 hours. Right now on a RR overnight you are lucky to get 5-6 some nights.
 
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations

meyers9163 said:
It increases rest by a lot.... Stating that when you are in the hotel van to and from the hotel it is a DHD and counts towards the duty time.... Thus you no longer lose that time when going to and from a hotel.... It also says it is working to make sure you have the ability to SLEEP 8 hours. Right now on a RR overnight you are lucky to get 5-6 some nights.
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Are you referring to this?

The FAA’s proposal does not change
the intent of the ARC to generally assure an 8-hour sleep opportunity. However, the
FAA believes that time in transit is not rest. In addition, the agency is concerned that
allowing this time to be included in the rest period could result in a reduction in actual
rest opportunity below 8 hours. The ARC members recognized this possibility and
considered an approach whereby any time exceeding 30 minutes would not be considered
in the rest period. Ultimately, the impact is the same; it is simply clearer from a
regulatory perspective to acknowledge that time in transit is not rest. The FAA has
decided against treating this time as duty because it recognizes that the permissible
amount of cumulative duty is only nominally higher than the permissible amount of FDP
and that the location of a rest facility is a lifestyle issue that is typically negotiated​
between the carriers and their unions.

I am still reading through all this inbetween other things right now and missed this since it's clear down on page 85, I believe. If that proposal goes through, that is a huge benefit. Been there done that so I understand the issue. Crews have complained about this for many years.
 
I'm going in waves. First I was pissed, then I read the PDf a bit and I wasn't as much. Now I'm going back to thinking that this new proposal has some huge items in it that go backwards in safety.

Yes, transportation will not count as time on duty.

That is fine for going to the layover, but if the van ride to the airport the next day is an hour, shouldn't that county as duty time, or at least be considered for the purposes of how long the crew is allowed to be on duty or fly?

What about now (proposed) where you can start at 0700 domicile time, and be legal to block 10 hours! If the van time needs to be 0600, that's wakeup for most people at 0500-0530 and be legal to block 10 hours and be on duty for 13. I really just don't think waking up at 5:00AM and being able to block 10 hours is a great idea, at all.



Scenario 2:

Standup. 2155 report, the crew does not time out until the next morning at 0855. Many standup/high-speed overnight out-and-backs currently fit well within that timeframe. Even if the airline wants a buffer of 1.5-2 hours for possible MX issues or de-ice delays, the flight could still be scheduled to arrive at around 0700-0730 back at the hub, and we're back to having a crew doing a layover with five hours of sleep again. Right back to square one. Then we're also back to having van time included as rest again, too, although technically it's not even rest. WTF.



Scenario 3:

A couple oceanic flights that would no longer require a third pilot:

DL249
1440 AMS
1720 DTW
Block 8:40

~0700 report eastern time means the crew is legal for 13 hours of duty and 10 hours of block.

AA121
1750 CDG
2030 JFK
Block 8:40

~1030 report eastern time means the crew is legal for 13 hours of duty and 10 hours of block.

A friend of mine does Europe at lot with AA out of JFK. Like all the other airlines, they stay downtown in all cities there. The van ride for CDG and many others is 1 hour+. So this is an 8AM wakeup after flying all night the night before (so ZERO rest unless a relief pilot is in the contract), going into an airport that could easily turn 8:40 block into 9-10 if it's having a bad day. No breaks other than a few minutes at a time to use the lav. Again, I just think this is a very long workday with no sleep the night before do be doing with two pilots.


AA005
1335 DFW
1645 HNL
Block 8:10

~ Noon report central time means the crew is legal for 13 hours of duty and 10 hours of block.

Now, here's the return for those:

AA008
1650 HNL
0510 DFW
Block 7:20

~2030 report central time means the crew is legal for 11 hours of duty and 8 hours of block.


AA102
1930 HNL
0800 DFW
Block 7:30

~Same with this one.

So there's two complete trips that would go from 3 pilots, to 2, unless the pilot contract requires a third pilot due to the hours. That's going backwards in safety in my opinion.

I hope I just haven't read this thing enough yet. I think it will eliminate jobs while making some things safer, and other things not as safe as they already are. I'll be sure to comment in this 60 day window if I'm understanding this stuff correctly right now.
 
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