bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100909/ap_on_bi_ge/us_tired_pilots
FAA Fatigue Rules
- Thread starter bike21
- Start date
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon
*COUGH COUGH COUGH, KACKLE, EXCUSE ME.......*
http://forums.jetcareers.com/airline-pilots/114182-flight-time-duty-time-release.html
*COUGH COUGH COUGH, KACKLE, EXCUSE ME.......*
http://forums.jetcareers.com/airline-pilots/114182-flight-time-duty-time-release.html
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
Surprised this hasn't cropped up yet...
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/09/regulators-to-announce-new-pil.html
The Associated Press reports that the US DOT and FAA will announce tomorrow a new rule governing how long pilots can fly or remain on duty without rest. The proposal follows concerns that pilot fatigue was a contributing factor in a crash in Buffalo in 2009 that killed 50 people.
The AP doesn't say how the rules will be changed, but it notes that airlines have lobbied the DOT to consider how much new restrictions could cost them. Current rules limit pilots to a 16-hour duty day and 8 hours of flight time during a 24-hour period.
The Air Transport Association has urged the FAA to increase the amount of flying time to 11 hours at most, depending on when they begin their day and how many trips they fly.
The FAA has scheduled a news conference for tomorrow to "make a major aviation announcement." So far the agency hasn't confirmed whether it will announce the new rule then.
Surprised this hasn't cropped up yet...
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/09/regulators-to-announce-new-pil.html
The Associated Press reports that the US DOT and FAA will announce tomorrow a new rule governing how long pilots can fly or remain on duty without rest. The proposal follows concerns that pilot fatigue was a contributing factor in a crash in Buffalo in 2009 that killed 50 people.
The AP doesn't say how the rules will be changed, but it notes that airlines have lobbied the DOT to consider how much new restrictions could cost them. Current rules limit pilots to a 16-hour duty day and 8 hours of flight time during a 24-hour period.
The Air Transport Association has urged the FAA to increase the amount of flying time to 11 hours at most, depending on when they begin their day and how many trips they fly.
The FAA has scheduled a news conference for tomorrow to "make a major aviation announcement." So far the agency hasn't confirmed whether it will announce the new rule then.
scooter2525
Very well Member
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
Some bean counter probably found a number that says they will save more flying people fatigued then on a crash payout in lawsuits and lost revenue.
Some bean counter probably found a number that says they will save more flying people fatigued then on a crash payout in lawsuits and lost revenue.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
I don't particularly think I could safely do that without a second crewmember or a rocking autopilot.
I don't particularly think I could safely do that without a second crewmember or a rocking autopilot.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
A second crew member or a rocking A/P is just more incentive to fall asleep.
A second crew member or a rocking A/P is just more incentive to fall asleep.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
As humorous as that is, its not that far off, that said, I've done a 13hr flight day part 91 and it was redonkculous. Never again.
As humorous as that is, its not that far off, that said, I've done a 13hr flight day part 91 and it was redonkculous. Never again.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
I just had one of those days last week...7am departure and an 11:30pm arrival.
ATL -> Mobile, AL -> Beaumont, TX -> South Chicago/Gary -> DC -> ATL
12.7 hours on the hobbs, with taxi time included, nearly 14 hours in the cockpit.
I just had one of those days last week...7am departure and an 11:30pm arrival.
ATL -> Mobile, AL -> Beaumont, TX -> South Chicago/Gary -> DC -> ATL
12.7 hours on the hobbs, with taxi time included, nearly 14 hours in the cockpit.
CamYZ125
Well-Known Member
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon
Yeah, to "End 15 hour duty days". Per the new rules
Yeah, to "End 15 hour duty days". Per the new rules
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon
Hey, that'll cut down 30 minutes at 9E.....
Yeah, to "End 15 hour duty days". Per the new rules
Hey, that'll cut down 30 minutes at 9E.....
higney85
Property of Scheduling
Re: Proposed FAA Rest Regulations: Out Soon
It at least makes for an interesting "leverage" in negotiations. "The FAA won't even let us do that". I'd love a webcam on that one....
It at least makes for an interesting "leverage" in negotiations. "The FAA won't even let us do that". I'd love a webcam on that one....
seagull
Well-Known Member
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
Really? So, how, exactly, do YOU quantify the actual risk from flying tired? How do you do that without considering pilot "off duty" activities? Which was more responsible for the "fatigue"? Was it actually "fatigue" that caused the accident/incident, or is there a reasonable probability that it would have occurred even if the particular pilot was fresh?
So, how many accidents (lives saved) are we actually gaining for what cost?
If the airlines are to spend that $$ amount, what if they spent it instead on better equipment, things like windshear prediction systems, RAAS, HUD/EFVS, or the like?
Still find this an easy choice? Recall that there is only so much money to spend. What if the choice is better fatigue rules at the price of reduced pilot wages (a real possibility, actually). Is your opinion the same?
Not saying that they should not do something, but to say that it is not a difficult issue is to ignore reality.
Really? So, how, exactly, do YOU quantify the actual risk from flying tired? How do you do that without considering pilot "off duty" activities? Which was more responsible for the "fatigue"? Was it actually "fatigue" that caused the accident/incident, or is there a reasonable probability that it would have occurred even if the particular pilot was fresh?
So, how many accidents (lives saved) are we actually gaining for what cost?
If the airlines are to spend that $$ amount, what if they spent it instead on better equipment, things like windshear prediction systems, RAAS, HUD/EFVS, or the like?
Still find this an easy choice? Recall that there is only so much money to spend. What if the choice is better fatigue rules at the price of reduced pilot wages (a real possibility, actually). Is your opinion the same?
Not saying that they should not do something, but to say that it is not a difficult issue is to ignore reality.
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
I'm pretty sure it was fatigue that led to the Colgan 3407 Captain pulling back on the yoke as the stick shaker was going off.. no amount of fancy gadgetry is gonna fix that. You're going to have to whine for a loooong time to get any of that stuff anyway.. Any money the airline saves is going towards cuban cigars for the executives' 18 holes
I'm pretty sure it was fatigue that led to the Colgan 3407 Captain pulling back on the yoke as the stick shaker was going off.. no amount of fancy gadgetry is gonna fix that. You're going to have to whine for a loooong time to get any of that stuff anyway.. Any money the airline saves is going towards cuban cigars for the executives' 18 holes
A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
What will be interesting, is to see if it will be required for all pilots to be at base x amount of hours before their scheduled duty. Will they restrict the the number of hours a crew member can spend in transit prior to signing in for duty? Over half of flight and cabin crews commute. Going to hold my thoughts til I have a chance to read the new regulations.
What will be interesting, is to see if it will be required for all pilots to be at base x amount of hours before their scheduled duty. Will they restrict the the number of hours a crew member can spend in transit prior to signing in for duty? Over half of flight and cabin crews commute. Going to hold my thoughts til I have a chance to read the new regulations.
seagull
Well-Known Member
Re: New Pilot Time/Duty Limitations
1. As has been stated, it was just one of several factors listed. One could argue that the core issue was competency (training failure history), and no amount of alertness would have changed his reactionary response to the aircraft control issue. Therein lies the problem with arguing that it was just fatigue. Impossible to say. We can argue with more certainty that the F/O was fatigued (as a consequence of her own actions during that commute). You can argue that she was "forced" to do that. Might or might not get any traction there, depending on your audience. A good attorney would make mincemeat of that argument. Still, her retracting of the flaps during the "recovery" exacerbated the situation. Was that a result of fatigue or a startle response out of poor training?
2. Regarding "fancy gadgetry", au contraire. The much vilified Airbus FBW control law just might have prevented this accident.
1. As has been stated, it was just one of several factors listed. One could argue that the core issue was competency (training failure history), and no amount of alertness would have changed his reactionary response to the aircraft control issue. Therein lies the problem with arguing that it was just fatigue. Impossible to say. We can argue with more certainty that the F/O was fatigued (as a consequence of her own actions during that commute). You can argue that she was "forced" to do that. Might or might not get any traction there, depending on your audience. A good attorney would make mincemeat of that argument. Still, her retracting of the flaps during the "recovery" exacerbated the situation. Was that a result of fatigue or a startle response out of poor training?
2. Regarding "fancy gadgetry", au contraire. The much vilified Airbus FBW control law just might have prevented this accident.