FAA Considers Canceling Certain Circling Procedures

[wheelsup]

And how many G650/750 combos are certified for those whizbang RNP approaches?

?

I was doing GPS approaches almost 20 years ago in C172s.

 

[gotWXdagain]

?

I was doing GPS approaches almost 20 years ago in C172s.

RNAV RNP 0.3? Don't think so.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Ahahahaha. Must be nice to be a flat land pilot.

I definitely see your point, it's not a go-to, but come on now. You're talking about a case where it's a waste of time to fly a straight-in IAP, but that you either can't catch the visual far enough out, probably because of flight visibility or you can see the field but can't maintain VFR cloud clearances at a sane pattern altitude. It's simply a tool for the right time and place that can be used more often if the circling mins get shwacked.


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[Roger Roger]

I definitely see your point, it's not a go-to, but come on now. You're talking about a case where it's a waste of time to fly a straight-in IAP, but that you either can't catch the visual far enough out, probably because of flight visibility or you can see the field but can't maintain VFR cloud clearances at a sane pattern altitude. It's simply a tool for the right time and place that can be used more often if the circling mins get shwacked.


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Literally every day on one of our routes. How hard is it to say "gee, it sounds like some folks use circling mins an awful lot and I hope the federales solicit some user input and use some common sense before they go canceling this shizzle willy-nilly?"

 

[Richman]

LPV mins for most approaches aren’t much lower. And not a very good argument because just basic RNAV approaches have much lower mins than even the best circles.

How often have you lost your GPS? A simple dual install is insanely cheap vs installing NDB, VOR, and ILS receivers and cockpit equipment.

You're kidding right?

A dual GPS setup, lets say with used dual 430Ws, indicators and annunciators is going to be north of $15k after getting the boxes and labor. A pair of used KX155s isn't going to be anywhere near that.

There are no "insanely cheap" or "simple installs".

And yes, I've lost GPS before. It happens.

 

[Roger Roger]

yes, I've lost GPS before. It happens.

Yup. That it do.

 

[Richman]

I've been controlling coming on a decade now and I've had exactly 2 pilots request a contact approach.

I'm sure you haven't given out many cruise clearances, either, but they have their uses as well.

Contact approaches have their uses. But you need to be familiar with the deal. There's a reason they aren't allowed to be solicited.

 

[denverpilot]

Until Joe Skylane pilot has the avionics box capable of doing those procedures though, is it really a good idea to straight up eliminate them? This could end up compelling those guys into the old Alaska dumpster IFR "procedures."

Nah, most of us aren’t suicidal. But around here the hilarious thing is if you go NORDO in a non /G aircraft, you know where you’re going? KFTG. It’s the only airport left that has transition routes to legally make your way there, everything else has gone RNAV and vectors to final, radar required.

Yup that’s right. In the brilliant design of Denver airspace a lost “Joe Skylane” is headed for the airport that essentially sits on the edge of the busiest airport for hundreds of miles. Brilliant.

Who cares GPS approaches have been out 20 years, at some point you need to join the current century. If you can buy an airplane you can buy an inexpensive used GPS box. The FAA will give a decade of lead time like always.

At some point we really need to do a cost benefit analysis of our government and spending millions maintaining approaches very few do is just nuts.

There is no such thing as an inexpensive used GPS box, if you want WAAS. Used stuff is holding its value and prices haven’t come down in a decade or more.

There’s also a lot of assumption in your second paragraph that the reason is about money, and how much. As an engineer, it screams guesswork to me. What’s the real number?

So your assertion is correct. A cost benefit analysis would be great, but you’re probably going to start with some really sketchy numbers for that analysis.

Meanwhile back at the Ranch, you know... they could have just designed RNAV overlays for circling approaches and kept them... sounds crazy, I know, but belt and suspenders and all... from an engineering design standpoint there’s no real technological reason that couldn’t have been done.

Keep both types and fly whatever equipment you’ve got. GPS goes TU? No problem, you already had the other stuff dialed up as backup.

The entire concept that GPS/RNAV has to “replace” anything is busted engineering design. But that’s water waaaay under the bridge. Treating it less like a “System” and more like modules, is a commonly seen theme in FAA engineering for about 15 years or so.

That said a stand alone GTN 650 install is over $10k. A significant portion of the value of the whole airplane for a lot of people. Not economical yet imo.

We got a screaming good deal on a GTN 650 and a new transponder (no point in adding a certified GPS without doing the 2020 ADS-B debacle/mandate now, even though that System design is also completely and totally broken in fundamental ways at the RF coverage design level and information filtering level. That’s a different post and topic.).

Price tag to move our stuff around a standard Skylane panel, swap an OBS out for one that the GPS likes, add one switch to set nav source for the venerable old autopilot, and get it all working, with labor and tax... right at $20,000. Nothing fancy. No new panel, lighting, or anything special. Retaining the good old steam gauges. To replace the steam, is another $10,000. Want to see the quote? The airplane goes in mid-December.

You could abandon ground based navaids everywhere west of PA and east of Denver.
Just have something to the effect of - in case of loss of GPS signal, Fly heading XXX, climb and maintain 3000, contact ATC.

Maybe east of Kansas perhaps. You’ll make a nice dirt trench in Eastern Colorado at 3000’.

How often have you lost your GPS? A simple dual install is insanely cheap vs installing NDB, VOR, and ILS receivers and cockpit equipment.

Dual GPS install of two Garmin 430s was taken off our list early because WAAS enabled 430s are a) Still quite expensive and b) Nobody knows when Garmin will stop supporting them. We all know there’s tens of thousands of them out there, but eventually Garmin will have to pull the plug on Support. Might as well buy something the clock hasn’t been ticking as long on. With a a warranty. Once you’re at $15K, what’s another few thousand amongst friends?

You're kidding right?

A dual GPS setup, lets say with used dual 430Ws, indicators and annunciators is going to be north of $15k after getting the boxes and labor. A pair of used KX155s isn't going to be anywhere near that.

There are no "insanely cheap" or "simple installs".

And yes, I've lost GPS before. It happens.

Yup. Dual 430s if you need two new OBSs to match, is north of $15,000 with labor. Steam and /A is cheap. Lots of used radios out there. King doesn’t want to support their stuff anymore either but the dealers screamed loud enough to get them to stop their plan to do those venerable old radios as “box swaps at the warehouse” like Garmin does. There’s still just barely enough avionics techs who know how to drive a bench, a stool, and a soldering iron. Barely. Most younger ones only know how to box swap now.

There’s at least three NOTAMs a month covering most of the state of Colorado and New Mexico warning of possible GPS interference for multiple days from the test facility in Alamogordo, and various military ranges. Covering altitudes all into the Flight Levels. (Covers to Cheyenne, WY that high up.) Those of us who live in the correct zip codes get the email warnings about the NOTAMs too.

Usually it’s a non-issue but everyone out West has seen the GPS go TU at least once when the cammo clad kids come out west to play with their jamming toys. There’s also a couple of test ranges in the southern states. Different DoD contractor, different set of toys.

And then there’s RAIM...

In all other GPS applications, prices have fallen to commodity levels. Aviation? Not even close. They’ve only gone up in price. They’ve gotten new and exciting features like... ooooh... intercepting an Airway. Everyone genuflect appropriately toward Olathe, KS and thank the Garmin gods and the certification overlords the boxes finally can do what a Cessna 200 autopilot could do tracking a VOR in 1975. Check out my goosebumps.

Yeah. We’ll spend the $20,000. We can afford it. It’s fairly silly though for a Skylane. But the ADS-B dog and pony show must march on, so we might as well. Depending on who you ask for a valuation, it comes out greater than 20% of the value of the entire aircraft. There’s no fiscal sense in it, it’s completely and totally, “stupid money”.

Most people could do a lot of stuff with $20,000. Telling friends in other hobbies I bought a GPS and it cost me $20K, they look at me like I grew a second head right in front of their eyes, and I know we won’t be seeing them signing up for flight lessons any time soon.

 

[deadstick]

First, anybody ever seen a circling line on a COPTER approach?

You're kidding right?

A dual GPS setup, lets say with used dual 430Ws, indicators and annunciators is going to be north of $15k after getting the boxes and labor. A pair of used KX155s isn't going to be anywhere near that.

There are no "insanely cheap" or "simple installs".

And yes, I've lost GPS before. It happens.

Yup. That it do.

I’ve lost GPS, too. The whole bit about WAAS units not needing a ground-bases IAP ar the primary or alternate destinations is fine, but I’m amazed there isn’t a requirement for dual WAAS GPSs — single-point failure and all.

 

[FloridaLarry]

.... Perhaps if they printed a picture of the airport so you could see what it might look like when you went visual....

Yeah, a return to those road maps that printed a photograph of each intersection! With electronic flightbags, this now becomes practical without a bookshelf in every cockpit

 

[nibake]

I’ve lost GPS, too. The whole bit about WAAS units not needing a ground-bases IAP ar the primary or alternate destinations is fine, but I’m amazed there isn’t a requirement for dual WAAS GPSs — single-point failure and all.

I have long wondered about this relying completely on GPS. Having WAAS increases probability of good coverage (because you get more satellites, of the geostationary variety) but is it still really reliable enough to not have a backup? I don't like the idea at all, and I'm surprised this thread has gone this far without bringing it up, what if something happens to GPS?

Granted, throughout history satellites in outer space have been out of the reach of rogue nations and terrorist groups, and maybe it will continue this way for a while. Still, the ground based component for WAAS could be a target for terrorists, and little rocketman has nukes. While he may not be able to aim them, EMPs don't need to be accurate. I doubt they could hurt the satellites but a weaponized EMP could take out a lot of GPS receivers over a specific area.

 

[RDoug]

I have long wondered about this relying completely on GPS. Having WAAS increases probability of good coverage (because you get more satellites, of the geostationary variety) but is it still really reliable enough to not have a backup? I don't like the idea at all, and I'm surprised this thread has gone this far without bringing it up, what if something happens to GPS?

Granted, throughout history satellites in outer space have been out of the reach of rogue nations and terrorist groups, and maybe it will continue this way for a while. Still, the ground based component for WAAS could be a target for terrorists, and little rocketman has nukes. While he may not be able to aim them, EMPs don't need to be accurate. I doubt they could hurt the satellites but a weaponized EMP could take out a lot of GPS receivers over a specific area.

You don't even have to look at malevolence to see the vulnerabilities of the GPS system. The whole network could fry during a repeat of the solar event of 1859.

 

[deadstick]

I have long wondered about this relying completely on GPS. Having WAAS increases probability of good coverage (because you get more satellites, of the geostationary variety) but is it still really reliable enough to not have a backup? I don't like the idea at all, and I'm surprised this thread has gone this far without bringing it up, what if something happens to GPS?

Granted, throughout history satellites in outer space have been out of the reach of rogue nations and terrorist groups, and maybe it will continue this way for a while. Still, the ground based component for WAAS could be a target for terrorists, and little rocketman has nukes. While he may not be able to aim them, EMPs don't need to be accurate. I doubt they could hurt the satellites but a weaponized EMP could take out a lot of GPS receivers over a specific area.

My SPF concern was more about my single, 15 yr old 430W blinking out as opposed to a GPS constellation issue. BUT...it’s legal.

 

[wheelsup]

You're kidding right?

A dual GPS setup, lets say with used dual 430Ws, indicators and annunciators is going to be north of $15k after getting the boxes and labor. A pair of used KX155s isn't going to be anywhere near that.

There are no "insanely cheap" or "simple installs".

And yes, I've lost GPS before. It happens.

KLN 89bs on eBay are around $1k for the box vs $6k for the 430.

Do you need dual GPS boxes or two GPS antennas? We have one box but two antennas on our aircraft and we can do GPS approaches like that.

Did you lose GPS signal or did a component on your aircraft fail?

 

[wheelsup]

I have long wondered about this relying completely on GPS. Having WAAS increases probability of good coverage (because you get more satellites, of the geostationary variety) but is it still really reliable enough to not have a backup? I don't like the idea at all, and I'm surprised this thread has gone this far without bringing it up, what if something happens to GPS?

Granted, throughout history satellites in outer space have been out of the reach of rogue nations and terrorist groups, and maybe it will continue this way for a while. Still, the ground based component for WAAS could be a target for terrorists, and little rocketman has nukes. While he may not be able to aim them, EMPs don't need to be accurate. I doubt they could hurt the satellites but a weaponized EMP could take out a lot of GPS receivers over a specific area.

If it takes out GPS it takes out NDBs and VORs so again really a moot point.

At that point you have your compass and situational awareness to save you if on an approach in order to climb up away from the terrain. It’s something we train for at my company (loss of map/guidance on approach).

 

[wheelsup]

RNAV RNP 0.3? Don't think so.

Of course not but now you’re moving the goal posts.

Straight in GPS approaches are far more accurate and safe vs a circling maneuver.

 

[Zapphod Beblebrox]

Stabilized Approach Criteria and circling approaches are in fact incompatible in my world. I came from corporate where we did a lot of circling in Jets to 121 where we now don't do any. AAL and most other 121's are anal retentive about stabilized approaches at 1000' AGL. Fully configured, on speed + corrections and spooled up with a less than 1000FPM descent rate. That just won't work with most circling approaches. These approaches are no longer in the Ops Spec. We now do various types of RNAV approaches instead.

I think this has some thing to do with this push by the FAA.

 

[Roger Roger]

I have long wondered about this relying completely on GPS. Having WAAS increases probability of good coverage (because you get more satellites, of the geostationary variety) but is it still really reliable enough to not have a backup? I don't like the idea at all, and I'm surprised this thread has gone this far without bringing it up, what if something happens to GPS?

Granted, throughout history satellites in outer space have been out of the reach of rogue nations and terrorist groups, and maybe it will continue this way for a while. Still, the ground based component for WAAS could be a target for terrorists, and little rocketman has nukes. While he may not be able to aim them, EMPs don't need to be accurate. I doubt they could hurt the satellites but a weaponized EMP could take out a lot of GPS receivers over a specific area.

You don't even have to look at malevolence to see the vulnerabilities of the GPS system. The whole network could fry during a repeat of the solar event of 1859.

KLN 89bs on eBay are around $1k for the box vs $6k for the 430.

Do you need dual GPS boxes or two GPS antennas? We have one box but two antennas on our aircraft and we can do GPS approaches like that.

Did you lose GPS signal or did a component on your aircraft fail?

What I have seen is:

• Pax PED(s?) bringing down GPS reception on both units in the aircraft (VFR trip).
• Bad #1 WAAS antenna radiating and knocking out reception on GPS1 and 2 (this is a frighteningly common Garmin specific issue and one they have pretty successfully kept quiet).
• Random, unforecast areawide reception problem of unknown origin.

 

[learhawkerbe400]

KLN 89bs on eBay are around $1k for the box vs $6k for the 430.

Do you need dual GPS boxes or two GPS antennas? We have one box but two antennas on our aircraft and we can do GPS approaches like that.

Did you lose GPS signal or did a component on your aircraft fail?

You can get all sorts of cheap non-WAAS GPS’ but that’s not what they’re talking about.

 

[Itchy]

You're kidding right?

A dual GPS setup, lets say with used dual 430Ws, indicators and annunciators is going to be north of $15k after getting the boxes and labor. A pair of used KX155s isn't going to be anywhere near that.

There are no "insanely cheap" or "simple installs".

And yes, I've lost GPS before. It happens.

Almost always, it is the antenna, followed closely, the display. The antennas have a preamp built into them, and they have to survive in some horrid conditions. Little rain makes its way in and no more gps. The displays get hot, and over time burn out. ( or the assoociated driver circuits). With electronic repair my maxim has alway been “if it moves, gets hot, or gets wet, consider it first”. Wait. what were we discussing?