FAA Chief Will Draft Rules to Address Fatigue

[Tram]

I will vouch for Tram in that there are some folks over "there" that basically beat the chest of "if you disagree, you're wrong" and "pick up the phone". The ATL rep is very good at picking up the phone but most reps take a while.

Yes, but call.. Don't e-mail.. Only lazy POS's e-mail.. I've almost called him a time or two, but that conversation would not have gone well at all..

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Yes, but call.. Don't e-mail.. Only lazy POS's e-mail.. I've almost called him a time or two, but that conversation would not have gone well at all..

BTW the ATL rep that I've called who managed to pick up twice is the guy that came over from MSP CA Rep... ML.... not DT... Just to be clear.

 

[Tram]

TK in MEM is the man too.. He's awesome..

 

[seaav8tor]

AMA: Do what it takes to control supply, raise pay and everything else will follow.

ALPA: Do everything; Air Safety, Education, Flight Time/Duty Time, Jumpseat, NAS Modernization, National Security, ATC & Violations, CIRP, FOQA, Mergers, Scope/Code Share, Tech Services, Training, the list goes on and on and on...... Great, it's all good. Oh wait we forgot compensation. Just add it here at the end. Oh wait, we lost over half the compensation, guess we were focusing on too many other things. Now all we can attract are Homer Simpson level IQ people that want to be airline pilots. Nice guys but not quite up to the task; oops there's a crash, activate, Safety, Accident investigation, CIRP, etc. Better beef up those areas.

And the death spiral of the career continues.....

Quite telling when it gets to the point where the headlines, government inquiries, and public awareness become focused on the fact that the career has disintegrated to the point where passengers are voicing public concern, afraid to use our services.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

You may have the right, but I tend to agree with those people that are telling you to volunteer. Simply paying your dues is the bare minimum required of you under the law at an agency shop. In my opinion, if you're not willing to do anything more than pay your dues and fly your trips, then you should just keep quiet and let the people that get involved take care of things. If you want to complain and tell the union what they're doing wrong, then you'd better be willing to put your time where your mouth is and get involved yourself to make things better.

wow....

So you're saying "give us your money and shut up. We don't care about what you have to say".

ATN and Velo. I really hope that one day you two realize how you have alienated many people on this forum and how little credibility you have. You two really are the ALPA version of this guy. Your message is very similar to those who question one's patriotism whenever they questioned President Bush.

ALPA is a great thing, but when you go about acting like it could do no wrong and that anyone who doesn't march lock step behind it are uninformed idiots, you really make the rest of us want to just keep on scrolling whenever you post anything.

 

[deek]

Actually the quote was from Mark Twain "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

Of course Mark Twain also said "Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please".

Sometimes voicing your "opinions" with no practical experience in the organization except for paying dues reflects how little you know about the organization.

Just saying.

As Abe Lincoln said, "Sometimes its better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

A wise man, that Abe.

 

[Tram]

I really, really wanna say "ooh burn!!!" but.. I won't..

 

[tonyw]

As far as what I've triggered, well, there are lots of people writing letters. Whether or not my efforts contributed to that has yet to be determined.
Frankly, though, I don't care if it was me or not. The objectives are being met, and that's what counts. If we need to push for more as time goes on, we will.

Push harder, my friend. As someone who has done sales for a decade, I've learned that you ain't done jacksquat until the contract is signed.

So I'd say write to Babbitt, and say thank you. And I'd say write to Obama, and tell him that you appreciate what Babbitt is doing. Also write to LaHood, who is Babbitt's direct boss.

Until the rules are written and they are what you want, you ain't done. Keep up the good work, though.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Does anybody think that increased rest that could be required by this change could lead to a bit of hiring? Not good financially for the airlines, but I'd certainly be happy to see some movement.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I've got a sad feeling that this is going to end up the way of a knee jerk...

I don't think this is going to make a commute any easier, and am really hoping that they don't just turn around and say, "commute time is the same as duty time", as the way our books are currently written, it is our duty to make sure the company can abuse us for 16 hours a day, 6 days in a row. It would be rude of us to inconvienience them.

Perhaps it's me being pessimistic, but... I've got a feeling that we will still get a 5 on 2 off schedule, be forced to commute in the day before as to not reduce available duty, and still required to have a day off... making a commute impossible.

yay.

 

[tonyw]

Does anybody think that increased rest that could be required by this change could lead to a bit of hiring? Not good financially for the airlines, but I'd certainly be happy to see some movement.

They will have two options.

First, they can increase the number of people they have on staff and maintain the same flight schedule they have.

Or, they can keep the same number of people they have on the payroll and decrease the number of flights they operate.

In this economic climate, I have a feeling it will be the latter. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. Reduced capacity means less competition for passengers, and that means higher fares can be charged. If they have the balls to do it, of course.

But assuming they have the balls to charge higher fares due to people having less options and less need to scramble to fill seats at the last second by practically giving them away, that means airlines will lose their "but we can't give you more money" excuse when it comes time to negotiate with employees.

 

[Velocipede]

The air line pilot profession is all about politics. Captain Behnke understood that 78 years ago, and it's no different today. Want to revitalize the profession? It all starts in Washington, DC, my friend.

:clap:

Well, I'm simply not interested in politics.. Kinda odd coming from a PoliSci Major, eh?

Then you're not interested in your job OR your profession. I once asked a guy if he contributed to ALPA PAC. His reply, "I give $200 a year to the NRA."

"So, you're more interested in keeping an arsenal in your basement than your job?"

"Yep."

Conversation over.

See, ATN_Pilot, it's guys like Velo that cause me to lose some faith in ALPA and what they are doing..

:rotfl:

If you base your opinions of ALPA on what I say, you're critical thinking ability is extremely questionable.

I pay dues.. In the simple action of paying dues, I am granted the right to be pleased or displeased with the "value" I am getting from my dues..

Of course you do. All I'm saying is public pronouncements about what Capt. Prater and the BoD are up to without any experience in Herndon is like commenting on NASCAR safety protocols because you possess a driver's license.

Now.. You might ask.. "Well, why not volunteer?"

I believe I did. You know so little about the MEC committee structure that you don't even realize that most volunteers don't interact with other committees unless they're working on a common issue. As evidenced by this comment:

but why would I want to spend my time volunteering with guys like Velo? I mean, really? Guys who are willing to beat me upside the high neck, chest and head because I expressed an.. opinion.. or "opinion" as Velo would like to call it.. I guess I'm not worthy of an opinion.....

No one said you couldn't have an opinion. But to express that opinion with such vehemence on a public message board when you have NO experiential basis for the opinion strikes me as just plain ignorant. Sorry.

From the rest of your post, it is apparent you vent at ALPA National simply because you have "issues" with your local MEC. Don't worry, its a common fault amongst those who DON'T UNDERSTAND the basics of how ALPA operates.

All I can say is do a little research prior to spewing.

You may have the right, but I tend to agree with those people that are telling you to volunteer. Simply paying your dues is the bare minimum required of you under the law at an agency shop. In my opinion, if you're not willing to do anything more than pay your dues and fly your trips, then you should just keep quiet and let the people that get involved take care of things.

:clap:

If you want to complain and tell the union what they're doing wrong, then you'd better be willing to put your time where your mouth is and get involved yourself to make things better.

:clap::clap:

But to be honest, I agree with Velo. He and I have seen how this works up in DC, so it's a little strange for someone that never has to claim that ALPA is a "paper tiger."

:clap::clap::clap:

You'd be amazed at how HARD it is to volunteer here. As I told the FOQA guy, you practically have to pester the crap out of them.

That's what I did. Pester them. Run for office. Keep bugging them until they can't stand it anymore and give you something to do. It works.

It's the same way everywhere. The reps are usually so busy that recruiting new volunteers falls between the cracks. You just have to keep pushing and attend as many Local Council meetings as possible to talk directly with your reps.

:clap:

It has a little something to do with the guy that occupied the humble abode at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue for 8 very long years.

Exactly. You may accuse me of "politicizing" this topic, but the fact of the matter is the FAA Administrator is an Administration appointee. If you're appointed by an Administration that is unashamedly pro business, you'd better be pro business.

If you're appointed by a pro-labor Administration, you'd better be pro-labor or you won't be an appointee very long.

See how it works?

Todd/Velo do either of you guys have battle star pins.

Talk about your red herrings. Neither he nor I have worked for Comair. That's the last strike in what, 25 years? So, no. Does that make our experience as ALPA volunteers any less valid?
:chair:

Of course Mark Twain also said "Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please".

Pot, kettle, deek. I believe President Lincoln lived about 50 years prior to Mr. Twain. Try the google function again, ace.

:banghead:


P.S. I'm taking to using emoticons more since reading for comprehension doesn't appear to be taught in the U.S. public school system anymore.

 

[Gonzo]

Then you're not interested in your job OR your profession. I once asked a guy if he contributed to ALPA PAC. His reply, "I give $200 a year to the NRA."

The ALPA PAC is one of the most important parts of ALPA. That is why even on first year pay I gave to the PAC. Funny thing is I saw a lot of names from this web listed as people who give to the PAC but I didn't see any of the Pro-ALPA loud mouths. Why do you think that is the case?

Talk about your red herrings. Neither he nor I have worked for Comair. That's the last strike in what, 25 years? So, no. Does that make our experience as ALPA volunteers any less valid?

No red herring. If Tram wanted to hear about the good and bad of ALPA my guess is he would just ask his old man. The guy with a battle star pin and is now part of the pilot group that has done more for ALPA then any other pilot group post-9/11.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Yep, no local council meetings scheduled yet.... if I had won I would have had one by now.... the reps have been "elected" since May 11.

ALPA changed the policy to only require 3 meetings a year, unfortunately. I'd like to see it return to quarterly meetings.

I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to spearhead a movement that doesn't start from the ALPA reps.

Talking with upper management is something that should only be done with the blessing of the MEC. ALPA is the collective bargaining representative of the pilot group, so individual pilots should not be talking directly to company VPs unless the MEC has given the go-ahead.

One thing that annoys me is that they don't take the time to store constituents numbers in their phones

I have 1700 constituents. Should I store all of them?

Todd/Velo do either of you guys have battle star pins.

Like Velo said, I never worked for CMR, so obviously not.

Yes, but call.. Don't e-mail.. Only lazy POS's e-mail.. I've almost called him a time or two, but that conversation would not have gone well at all..

I actually prefer emails. I'll respond to an email within a few minutes, usually, since I have an iPhone and can take care of it no matter where I am, but I usually don't have the time to drop everything and make a phone call.

The ALPA PAC is one of the most important parts of ALPA. That is why even on first year pay I gave to the PAC. Funny thing is I saw a lot of names from this web listed as people who give to the PAC but I didn't see any of the Pro-ALPA loud mouths. Why do you think that is the case?

Not sure if you're counting me as one of those "loud mouths," but I wasn't allowed to contribute for the past couple of years because I was on inactive status. I tried to give them my money, but Captain Couette had to return my checks because the law requires you to be an active member to contribute. At Pinnacle I was a member of the ALPA-PAC Capital Club for two years in a row, and I plan to contribute enough next year for the President's Circle.

The guy with a battle star pin and is now part of the pilot group that has done more for ALPA then any other pilot group post-9/11.

Which pilot group is that?

So you're saying "give us your money and shut up. We don't care about what you have to say".

No, I'm saying "get involved." Just throwing money at ALPA and expecting everything to go great is not reasonable. Participation is required for ALPA to be truly successful.

ATN and Velo. I really hope that one day you two realize how you have alienated many people on this forum and how little credibility you have.

You've said this previously, but far more members have expressed the exact opposite opinion.

 

[OldTownPilot]

ATN and Velo. I really hope that one day you two realize how you have alienated many people on this forum and how little credibility you have. You two really are the ALPA version of this guy. Your message is very similar to those who question one's patriotism whenever they questioned President Bush.

ALPA is a great thing, but when you go about acting like it could do no wrong and that anyone who doesn't march lock step behind it are uninformed idiots, you really make the rest of us want to just keep on scrolling whenever you post anything.

You've said this previously, but far more members have expressed the exact opposite opinion.

I don't go around publicly expressing opinions of people (and lots of others don't) but since you asked, add me in the list of people that you have alienated with your drivel. I'm all for workers rights and that jazz, and based on my background I'd probably one of the easiest GA pilots to be very pro-ALPA, (and was one for a period of time) but when either one of you post it just it makes me think that my old man is right whenever he talks about the maniacs in the union. I also lost total respect for Velo after something that he did to a mod outside of this site, and that will never change.

And as someone that has worked with non-profits/ volunteer groups, if you are crying for people to volunteer, you HAVE to make it as easy for them to do so. I'm amazed that you have people calling to help, but when you are unresponsive towards them it makes them think that you either don't care, or don't need them. Neither encourages them, and after a couple of attempts of trying to give up your time you give up. Nothing discourages volunteers more than a lack of communication.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And as someone that has worked with non-profits/ volunteer groups, if you are crying for people to volunteer, you HAVE to make it as easy for them to do so. I'm amazed that you have people calling to help, but when you are unresponsive towards them it makes them think that you either don't care, or don't need them. Neither encourages them, and after a couple of attempts of trying to give up your time you give up. Nothing discourages volunteers more than a lack of communication.

You need to keep in mind that very few ALPA reps are full-time union volunteers. Almost all ALPA reps still fly their full flying schedule while trying to do all of their ALPA work on their time off. Under those circumstances, it's not difficult to figure out why it sometimes takes so long to get a rep to get back to you about a non-urgent issue like wanting to join a committee. Only the majors are able to have enough full-time ALPA volunteers to be able to process communications to the degree that you're expecting.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Something to change perhaps? Not sure how all the flight pay loss stuff works, but if you had a full-time communications chair, that might do wonders. Probably has something to do with the pilots wanting the flight time more to get out of there. Just saying how it is from a volunteers perspective.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Something to change perhaps? Just saying how it is from a volunteers perspective.

How do you change it? Most carriers can't afford to have reps on full-time status and not fly.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Push harder, my friend. As someone who has done sales for a decade, I've learned that you ain't done jacksquat until the contract is signed.

So I'd say write to Babbitt, and say thank you. And I'd say write to Obama, and tell him that you appreciate what Babbitt is doing. Also write to LaHood, who is Babbitt's direct boss.

Until the rules are written and they are what you want, you ain't done. Keep up the good work, though.

Agreed. Looks like I have a good deal of writing to do.

Thanks for the encouragement. I hope all those who believe as I do understand that now is the time to be the 'squeaky wheel'. We have the attention of Washington, the press, and often as not the people.

It's time.

BTW- I had the COOLEST idea today on the drive home.

If airlines are required to report their stats in terms of schedule performance... why on earth aren't they required to publish their performance in regards to SAFETY?

"and in airline news, XXXX airline had the only fatality accident this quarter. XXX airline continues to draw the tail end spot for longest duty hours for aircrews, XX had the weakest hiring standards, and XXX airline comes up last for meeting recommended compensation standards, etc"

Stop reporting who was late for class and start reminding the public who stacked up a jet or two and suddenly people will take notice of airline safety.

You know, historically, airline schedule stats became reportable because Bob Crandall wanted to stick it to Continental Airlines. Considering Frank Lorenzo was running the joint at the time, I don't really fault him, not the slightest.

I think that when somebody with Frank Lorenzo's history is running the worst-performing outfit in the nation, that's noteworthy. His standards of business haunt him still. I think it's an apt comparison to apply the same sort of scrutiny to today's safety-skirting airlines. We shouldn't let the Frank Lorenzos of modern airline business off so easily.

 

[juan valdez]

If you base your opinions of ALPA on what I say, you're critical thinking ability is extremely questionable.

I'm going to preface this with I am not a professional pilot, only an aspiring one. That said, I hope to God I never fly with someone like you and more to my point of highlighting this particular part of your dissertation is why do you come on here acting all high and mighty in EVERY SINGLE POST you make and then reply to someone that if they are taking you serious then said person is an idiot.

P.S. I'm taking to using emoticons more since reading for comprehension doesn't appear to be taught in the U.S. public school system anymore.

Wow! How old are you again? I thought you were a mature, seasoned hardened combat aviator who now has to unfortunately fly around stupid civilian pax? Seems more like you are in the fifth grade with comments like this one. You and my nephew should hang out sometime and trade cut downs.