FAA Chief Will Draft Rules to Address Fatigue

[Tram]

Of course you're right. However, remember the Republican political agenda. It has to be good for the business, not the individual pilots.

Also, remember what Bob Crandall used to say. American could take 3 hull losses a year because they were insured.

A Republican administrator would never issue a NPRM that might force the airlines to INCREASE staffing. That hinders the bottom line don't ya know.

Now, before I go quoting Ole'Man Abe, I'm gonna ask.. Have you ever served within the Republican party?

Because.. see.. if you have not.. You are not allowed to have an opinion on what they may or may not do..

I also think it's pretty hilarious you are trying to turn this into a political debate.. I can't stand politics..

Keep talking, Tram.

LOL.. Bite me, Velo..

I love how viciously you guys go after anyone who says ANYTHING close to contrary to "ALPA deserves my first born!".. but.. arn't we supposed to be "ALPA brothers?" LOL.. Riiiggght..

It's sorta like the comment people have made about Christianity.. The one that goes "the greatest cause of atheism is Christian's..."

Yet, all I said was that I didn't think it was ALPA's hand at work here, I think there events greater than ALPA.. I.E. The death of 50 people and perhaps a touch of public outcry that caused it.. and you go all union-postal on me..

 

[pullup]

So.. Now I'm a fool, because I have an opinion of ALPA but have never seen the "inside" of the agency?

I think I am well within my right to voice an... "opinion" having seen what little I have seen..

You can argue it all you want, ALPA may have helped, I would like to think they have, but before I go looking for Prater's hand to shake, I think the lives of those who died in the crash that brought the issue to the forefront would be thanked first..

Had 3407 never happened, the current "up-roar" would be non-existent..

Don't forget your union card if you want to jumpseat. Check your manual!

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

So we went from me not being credible because I'm not a volunteer to bringing it to a left/right political argument?

I'm just curious, did you just assume I had never volunteered, or ...?

This thread is classic Velocipede. This is really the blueprint for a discussion with him.

A). Namecalling
B). Straw man argument
C). Claim you aren't informed enough to make a decision

Cue up Seggy for his pro-ALPA response.

 

[OldTownPilot]

...
Remember, you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.

...

Heed your own advice much?

 

[Tram]

Heed your own advice much?

Lots of vinegar floatin' around this thread..

 

[Tram]

This thread is classic Velocide. This is really the blueprint for a discussion with him.

A). Namecalling
B). Straw man argument
C). Claim you aren't informed enough to make a decision

Cue up Seggy for his pro-ALPA response.

Yeh, I guess I've just been fortunate so far to avoid the wrath that is Velo.. Ah you win some you lose some..

"Opinions."

 

[juan valdez]

This thread is classic Velocipede. This is really the blueprint for a discussion with him.

A). Namecalling
B). Straw man argument
C). Claim you aren't informed enough to make a decision

Cue up Seggy for his pro-ALPA response.

Exactly. I'm not even going to read the rest of this thread, it has already ebcome useless.
It's not bad enough that 90% of the discussions in the lav become political but now Velo has to bring that *stuff* into this forum as well. :clap:

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I also think it's pretty hilarious you are trying to turn this into a political debate.. I can't stand politics..

The air line pilot profession is all about politics. Captain Behnke understood that 78 years ago, and it's no different today. Want to revitalize the profession? It all starts in Washington, DC, my friend.

 

[coa787]

As Abe Lincoln said, "Sometimes its better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

A wise man, that Abe.

But, but, but... Francis Bacon said that "silence is the virtue of fools!"

That's my garbage contribution to this thread....

 

[Tram]

The air line pilot profession is all about politics. Captain Behnke understood that 78 years ago, and it's no different today. Want to revitalize the profession? It all starts in Washington, DC, my friend.

Well, I'm simply not interested in politics.. Kinda odd coming from a PoliSci Major, eh?

That, and I also think the profession has slipped beyond the grasps of revitalization..

See, ATN_Pilot, it's guys like Velo that cause me to lose some faith in ALPA and what they are doing..

For instance.. On our company message board, any time the union is questioned, those questioning the union are met with "Velo like replies."

VOLUNTEEER!!!
You don't possess enough knowledge to have an "opinion"
etc..
etc..
etc..

Well, I'm kinda tired of that..

I pay dues.. In the simple action of paying dues, I am granted the right to be pleased or displeased with the "value" I am getting from my dues..

If I paid dues to another club and felt like I was not getting my moneys worth, I would stop paying dues.. Well, with ALPA, we all know you pay dues whether you want to or not.. I am happy to pay ALPA dues.. I've worked at an airline without a union.. So, I on the whole, I am extremely thankful to have ALPA.. However, I am not always 100% pleased with what they do.. Money out of my pocket goes to pay for ALPA, so I am WELL within my right to express an opinion on how they are handling things, without volunteering..

Now.. You might ask.. "Well, why not volunteer?"

Well, for the most part, and this is not 100% all inclusive, as I've met some really rockin' ALPA volunteers, but why would I want to spend my time volunteering with guys like Velo? I mean, really? Guys who are willing to beat me upside the high neck, chest and head because I expressed an.. opinion.. or "opinion" as Velo would like to call it.. I guess I'm not worthy of an opinion.....

Case and point... our MEC is going through some stuff with our contract, etc.. Well.. I had an e-mail discussion with VP of flight ops via e-mail and copied the discussion to a rather large list of MEC members..

The response I got from company management was better than that of the response I got from my OWN MEC.. and here's the kicker.. I expressed my disappointment with the lack of ANY real response from the MEC to my e-mail.. I didn't go on a rant or a rampage.. I simply said I was diasappointed.. I e-mailed 12 or 14 guys.. Got 2 replies..

In response to my expression of disappointment, I was berated in our forums for e-mailing these members.. "They are busy.." "They have full plates..." "Are you volunteering?" etc, etc..

Well, one guy found the time to tell me to "pick up the *&%#$ phone and stop being a lazy POS." Rather than e-mailing the MEC members..

Well, this person who called me a "lazy POS" was name #1 on the e-mail I sent..

So.. Here is a guy who is supposed to be looking out for my welfare as an ALPA dues paying member, who also doesn't have the "time" to read a simple e-mail but yet, still has the time to berate me on a quasi-public message board? Give me a break..

Then, I come here and mention that I don't feel that ALPA single handedly accomplished the changes that may or may not happen and I am attacked by another ALPA representative?

It doesn't really encourage me to do much volunteering, nor does it bolster any faith I might have in ALPA as a whole to do much..

So that's pretty much where I stand...

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Well, I'm simply not interested in politics.. Kinda odd coming from a PoliSci Major, eh?

That, and I also think the profession has slipped beyond the grasps of revitalization..

See, ATN_Pilot, it's guys like Velo that cause me to lose some faith in ALPA and what they are doing..

For instance.. On our company message board, any time the union is questioned, those questioning the union are met with "Velo like replies."

VOLUNTEEER!!!
You don't possess enough knowledge to have an "opinion"
etc..
etc..
etc..

Well, I'm kinda tired of that..

I pay dues.. In the simple action of paying dues, I am granted the right to be pleased or displeased with the "value" I am getting from my dues..

If I paid dues to another club and felt like I was not getting my moneys worth, I would stop paying dues.. Well, with ALPA, we all know you pay dues whether you want to or not.. I am happy to pay ALPA dues.. I've worked at an airline without a union.. So, I on the whole, I am extremely thankful to have ALPA.. However, I am not always 100% pleased with what they do.. Money out of my pocket goes to pay for ALPA, so I am WELL within my right to express an opinion on how they are handling things, without volunteering..

Now.. You might ask.. "Well, why not volunteer?"

Well, for the most part, and this is not 100% all inclusive, as I've met some really rockin' ALPA volunteers, but why would I want to spend my time volunteering with guys like Velo? I mean, really? Guys who are willing to beat me upside the high neck, chest and head because I expressed an.. opinion.. or "opinion" as Velo would like to call it.. I guess I'm not worthy of an opinion.....

Case and point... our MEC is going through some stuff with our contract, etc.. Well.. I had an e-mail discussion with VP of flight ops via e-mail and copied the discussion to a rather large list of MEC members..

The response I got from company management was better than that of the response I got from my OWN MEC.. and here's the kicker.. I expressed my disappointment with the lack of ANY real response from the MEC to my e-mail.. I didn't go on a rant or a rampage.. I simply said I was diasappointed.. I e-mailed 12 or 14 guys.. Got 2 replies..

In response to my expression of disappointment, I was berated in our forums for e-mailing these members.. "They are busy.." "They have full plates..." "Are you volunteering?" etc, etc..

Well, one guy found the time to tell me to "pick up the *&%#$ phone and stop being a lazy POS." Rather than e-mailing the MEC members..

Well, this person who called me a "lazy POS" was name #1 on the e-mail I sent..

So.. Here is a guy who is supposed to be looking out for my welfare as an ALPA dues paying member, who also doesn't have the "time" to read a simple e-mail but yet, still has the time to berate me on a quasi-public message board? Give me a break..

Then, I come here and mention that I don't feel that ALPA single handedly accomplished the changes that may or may not happen and I am attacked by another ALPA representative?

It doesn't really encourage me to do much volunteering, nor does it bolster any faith I might have in ALPA as a whole to do much..

So that's pretty much where I stand...

You MUST work for Pinnacle.

 

[Tram]

You MUST work for Pinnacle.

Judging by your signature, you must too..

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well, I'm simply not interested in politics.. Kinda odd coming from a PoliSci Major, eh?

Politics govern your career. If you aren't interested in politics, then I guess you aren't interested in bettering your career. :dunno:

That, and I also think the profession has slipped beyond the grasps of revitalization..

Ridiculous. Nothing is hopeless. We are well on our way to recapturing what we've lost. Don't give up.

I pay dues.. In the simple action of paying dues, I am granted the right to be pleased or displeased with the "value" I am getting from my dues..

You may have the right, but I tend to agree with those people that are telling you to volunteer. Simply paying your dues is the bare minimum required of you under the law at an agency shop. In my opinion, if you're not willing to do anything more than pay your dues and fly your trips, then you should just keep quiet and let the people that get involved take care of things. If you want to complain and tell the union what they're doing wrong, then you'd better be willing to put your time where your mouth is and get involved yourself to make things better.

Well, for the most part, and this is not 100% all inclusive, as I've met some really rockin' ALPA volunteers, but why would I want to spend my time volunteering with guys like Velo?

From what I hear from everyone who's met him, Velo is apparently a great guy. I don't know why you wouldn't want to spend time volunteering with him. He's a dedicated volunteer that has done a lot to make this profession better for you. Give the man his due.

Case and point... our MEC is going through some stuff with our contract, etc.. Well.. I had an e-mail discussion with VP of flight ops via e-mail and copied the discussion to a rather large list of MEC members..

Why are you emailing the VP of Flight Ops? Your union should speak for you. Never talk directly with airline management. That's what your MEC is for.

So.. Here is a guy who is supposed to be looking out for my welfare as an ALPA dues paying member, who also doesn't have the "time" to read a simple e-mail but yet, still has the time to berate me on a quasi-public message board? Give me a break..

I'm not really going to comment on this whole situation since I didn't see your original email or the responses.

Then, I come here and mention that I don't feel that ALPA single handedly accomplished the changes that may or may not happen and I am attacked by another ALPA representative?

I wouldn't say that anyone "attacked" you. No need to be so sensitive. Back up your opinion if you feel strongly about it. But to be honest, I agree with Velo. He and I have seen how this works up in DC, so it's a little strange for someone that never has to claim that ALPA is a "paper tiger." On what do you base this opinion? Have you talked to Captain Prater about his meeting? Have you talked to Legislative Affairs? Have you volunteered for the PCL Legislative Affairs committee? What is your background to claim that ALPA is a "paper tiger" in DC?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

You may have the right, but I tend to agree with those people that are telling you to volunteer. Simply paying your dues is the bare minimum required of you under the law at an agency shop. In my opinion, if you're not willing to do anything more than pay your dues and fly your trips, then you should just keep quiet and let the people that get involved take care of things. If you want to complain and tell the union what they're doing wrong, then you'd better be willing to put your time where your mouth is and get involved yourself to make things better.

You'd be amazed at how HARD it is to volunteer here. As I told the FOQA guy, you practically have to pester the crap out of them.

Why are you emailing the VP of Flight Ops? Your union should speak for you. Never talk directly with airline management. That's what your MEC is for.

We organized an e-mail writing campaign and had as many pilots as possible "Ask An Officer".

 

[Firebird2XC]

Looks like you've got something going, Charlie.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124510795339316825.html

The top U.S. air-safety regulator said Monday that within a few months he hopes to draft tougher rules to alleviate fatigue among commuter airline pilots.

The move, and the speedy timetable for implementing it, is an indication that Randy Babbitt, the recently confirmed head of the Federal Aviation Administration, considers commuter pilot fatigue to be among the agency's top safety concerns. Commuter airlines account for more than half of all commercial flights in the U.S. They typically fly under contract from major carriers, ferrying passengers between smaller destinations and larger hubs.

"The bottom line is, I'm going to want a new rule" aimed at combating commuter-pilot fatigue, Mr. Babbitt told reporters. "I'd like to do it in the coming months."

It's been a long time since the NTSB said this issue needed to be addressed. It's good to see that someone wants to do it in a few months and that person is the head of the FAA.

We may have already been stymied. I've already seen a few articles detailing how the carriers came out of this big meeting with 'voluntary changes' they're going to make to fix problems.

I'll believe that when I see it.

As far as what I've triggered, well, there are lots of people writing letters. Whether or not my efforts contributed to that has yet to be determined.
Frankly, though, I don't care if it was me or not. The objectives are being met, and that's what counts. If we need to push for more as time goes on, we will.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You'd be amazed at how HARD it is to volunteer here. As I told the FOQA guy, you practically have to pester the crap out of them.

It's the same way everywhere. The reps are usually so busy that recruiting new volunteers falls between the cracks. You just have to keep pushing and attend as many Local Council meetings as possible to talk directly with your reps.

We organized an e-mail writing campaign and had as many pilots as possible "Ask An Officer".

So this was something the MEC organized and endorsed?

 

[Tram]

ATN_Pilot-

I had a big, long drawn out reply typed up and I realized it's not worth the time to bicker back and forth over..

It boils down like this:

I began to lose faith in ALPA with the constant "Fly Now, Grieve later" issues.. Everything.. "Fly now, grieve later.." We'll give you a comp day here, a comp day there.. I don't need a comp day 3 weeks from now.. I needed TODAY off.. Etc..

What faith I still have in ALPA has suffered a huge blow, at the hands of an ALPA member appointed to a leadership position, who is supposed to be looking after my welfare at my company... My faith in ALPA has been further diminished by the actions of other "Loud and proud" ALPA members..

I said it early in this thread.. The greatest cause of atheism is Christianity...

Nothing I say to you is going to change your point of view.. Nothing you say to me is going to change my point of view.. That is about all that can be said..

Whether you agree with me or not, matters very little.. I will tell you this, you are one of the first to have a quasi-civil "discussion" on the topic and I appreciate that..

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I had a nice, long reply typed out..

I'll break it down into 5 words..

I don't agree with you.

Again, back up your opinion. Why do you disagree? What is your reasoning?

Here is something to ponder.. If ALPA is so powerful, why is 9E 4+ years into negotiations?

It has a little something to do with the guy that occupied the humble abode at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue for 8 very long years.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

It's the same way everywhere. The reps are usually so busy that recruiting new volunteers falls between the cracks. You just have to keep pushing and attend as many Local Council meetings as possible to talk directly with your reps.

Yep, no local council meetings scheduled yet.... if I had won I would have had one by now.... the reps have been "elected" since May 11.

So this was something the MEC organized and endorsed?

The MEC did not organize it. A line pilot did, and we all essentially thought it was a good idea and followed suit. We were vindicated by SE:

I do urge everyone to contact their local manager or company officer to express your displeasure

I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to spearhead a movement that doesn't start from the ALPA reps. I've gotten response from certain reps when I've sent e-mails that they want me to help pass the word along to do what I did.

I will vouch for Tram in that there are some folks over "there" that basically beat the chest of "if you disagree, you're wrong" and "pick up the phone". The ATL rep is very good at picking up the phone but most reps take a while.

One thing that annoys me is that they don't take the time to store constituents numbers in their phones, because the first time I understand "being cautious" about scheduling calling, but thereafter they should be able to pick up without going to voicemail.

I say these things ONLY because if I was a rep, I'd answer every call, since I have Nonconnah #s in my phone. I'd also get to e-mails faster.... and yet I don't have data phone.

 

[Gonzo]

Two points the rules should be 10 hours duty/flight can go to 12.
&
Todd/Velo do either of you guys have battle star pins.