FAA changes to Operational Procedures and the 7110.65

NovemberEcho said:
No this is because the FAA has decided tracons have been doing radar identification wrong so tower doing it before switching is a (probably also wrong) work around in lieu of rolling calls
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Really?

With the technology in use today rolling calls are mostly obsolete anyway (especially in class B) just make it official.
 
///AMG said:
What is a "rolling call"?
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There are several ways to radar identify a target, and for departures, having the local controller coordinate with the departure controller to tell them who is next off the runway is the most efficient way to do that. At facilities that are not co-located, a blind broadcast on a shout line is the simplest way to accomplish this. At an up/down facility they use drop tubes to perform the same function. Some facilities have electronic means that take various forms. When I was at MHT there was a camera pointed at our departure strip bay and we were able to indicate who was rolling by adjusting the positioning of the strip.

This was something that was necessary under old radar systems, but I believe since the advent of auto-acquiring radar targets it is obsolete. That is one of the FAAs many faults, the adopt new technology and implement new rules, but never remove the obsolete ones. Sometimes the rules just fall by the wayside, like the requirement to solicit PIREPS when the weather is forecast to be less than 5k and 5. In practice we only solicit pireps when our laser range finder tells us the weather is below that. Most people don't even know that the forecast language is in the book, but it definitely still is. Other times some ambitious manager or QA person realizes something that has been working fine for decades with no issue is not to the letter and crap like this happens.
 
GolfChuck said:
There are several ways to radar identify a target, and for departures, having the local controller coordinate with the departure controller to tell them who is next off the runway is the most efficient way to do that. At facilities that are not co-located, a blind broadcast on a shout line is the simplest way to accomplish this. At an up/down facility they use drop tubes to perform the same function. Some facilities have electronic means that take various forms. When I was at MHT there was a camera pointed at our departure strip bay and we were able to indicate who was rolling by adjusting the positioning of the strip.

This was something that was necessary under old radar systems, but I believe since the advent of auto-acquiring radar targets it is obsolete. That is one of the FAAs many faults, the adopt new technology and implement new rules, but never remove the obsolete ones. Sometimes the rules just fall by the wayside, like the requirement to solicit PIREPS when the weather is forecast to be less than 5k and 5. In practice we only solicit pireps when our laser range finder tells us the weather is below that. Most people don't even know that the forecast language is in the book, but it definitely still is. Other times some ambitious manager or QA person realizes something that has been working fine for decades with no issue is not to the letter and crap like this happens.
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Or how different nearby TRACONs have completely different procedures and LOAs for their same exact ops types, even things such as airspace allocation to the towers and what the towers are allowed to control airspace wise.
 
MikeD said:
Or how different nearby TRACONs have completely different procedures and LOAs for their same exact ops types, even things such as airspace allocation to the towers and what the towers are allowed to control airspace wise.
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That's a little more understandable, different towers have different needs. At MHT the tower owned no airspace except the traffic pattern, and approach was required to point out anyone transiting the departure corridor. Anyone leaving the pattern had to be on a code and coordinated. At the C where I learned to fly the tower owned the whole surface area up to the bottom of the outer shelf.
 
Re: rolling call/radar identification, this is why some departure controllers ask you to ident. Identing on your own does nothing and is just an annoyance. If that procedure is used at your departing airport, the ident must be a response to the departure controller's request.
 
GolfChuck said:
That's a little more understandable, different towers have different needs. At MHT the tower owned no airspace except the traffic pattern, and approach was required to point out anyone transiting the departure corridor. Anyone leaving the pattern had to be on a code and coordinated. At the C where I learned to fly the tower owned the whole surface area up to the bottom of the outer shelf.
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the former is how U90 is, the latter is how P50 is. Especially for helo ops. I’m convinced that it’s only that tightly controlled at U90 so they can stay in business and not get shut down….they literally do nothing for VFR traffic arriving except issue you a squawk, tell you radar contact and immediately hand you to tower, all to probably click another traffic worked. Even though zero was provided. And, for outbounds, if you exit the C airspace from the surface but still underneath tbe shelf and request to cancel radar service, they still hang onto you, even though you are no longer in their airspace and are wanting to cancel and change frequencies.

P50, they want nothing to do with you if you are a helo, or even a small fixed wing, coming and going VFR from the surface area with no other needs such as a practice instrument approach request. Call tower directly inbound and outbound, P50 is busy with other stuff. Which is how i much prefer it. But then again, P50 isn’t in danger of being shut down, so maybe that’s it.

i’ve been going round and round with the TRACON over this, but they won’t budge.
 
GolfChuck said:
Re: rolling call/radar identification, this is why some departure controllers ask you to ident. Identing on your own does nothing and is just an annoyance. If that procedure is used at your departing airport, the ident must be a response to the departure controller's request.
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“runway XX, cleared for takeoff, change to departure”. Always preferred the clearance as issued to tactical jets when i would get it standard back in the day.
 
@MikeD yeah, the busier the tracon, the more responsibilities delegated to a class C tower. U90 ops are probably more common than P50. I learned to fly at ISP. VFR fixed wing and helos could punch out with the tower, but only helos could come back in without talking to approach. obviously N90 is a busy place. That's not to say that A90 north side wasn't busy, but I imagine their complexity was less than ISP sector.
 
MikeD said:
And, for outbounds, if you exit the C airspace from the surface but still underneath tbe shelf and request to cancel radar service, they still hang onto you, even though you are no longer in their airspace and are wanting to cancel and change frequencies.
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If you’re talking about the Tracon just because you’re not in the c airspace doesn’t mean you’re not in the tracons airspace. Although I don’t know why anyone would want to hang on to a VFR helicopter one second longer than needed.
 
NovemberEcho said:
If you’re talking about the Tracon just because you’re not in the c airspace doesn’t mean you’re not in the tracons airspace. Although I don’t know why anyone would want to hang on to a VFR helicopter one second longer than needed.
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agreed! though maybe it’s for traffic above or passing/crossing above that is inside the shelf above, maybe descending.
 
DE727UPS said:
Well, they are addressing the DCA crash with that one. Even back to the PSA mid-air, just cause a pilot see's traffic, it could be the wrong traffic or they could lose traffic 10 seconds after calling it in sight. As a pilot, it's a uneasy feeling being turned lose for a visual and then losing sight for a bit as you search again. For safety sake, I think keeping a close eye on visuals from the ATC perspective is a good thing.
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Some airports are absolutely notorious for pressing you to call traffic in site, in low vis conditions on parallel runways.

Is that little blinky light in the dusk haze a 717, a 757, a flying saucer or a drone? Can’t tell. Are they on 19 or 18L?

(Runways are made-up so I don’t get roasted)
 
derg said:
Some airports are absolutely notorious for pressing you to call traffic in site, in low vis conditions on parallel runways.

Is that little blinky light in the dusk haze a 717, a 757, a flying saucer or a drone? Can’t tell. Are they on 19 or 18L?

(Runways are made-up so I don’t get roasted)
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It’s okay…you can totally call out LAX. They deserve it. :bounce: :bounce:
 
No one should be pressured to report traffic in sight, but the way I understand it, pilot applied visual is either gone or going away as well.
 
With today’s tech there’s no reason you couldn’t have a helmet or a full windscreen HUD and multi sensor fusion that would highlight the called out traffic.
 
Roger Roger said:
With today’s tech there’s no reason you couldn’t have a helmet or a full windscreen HUD and multi sensor fusion that would highlight the called out traffic.
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You’ll take your motley collection of incandescent lights and bent three position switches that you can’t tell what they are set to and fly it like a real pilot, just like they did in 1967, and like it!
 
Karnage said:
You’ll take your motley collection of incandescent lights and bent three position switches that you can’t tell what they are set to and fly it like a real pilot, just like they did in 1967, and like it!
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Honorable mention to the guarded switch on the pedestal that holds the trash bag
 
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