F16 - MOA Operations

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
just received this in my AOPA mail, spooky indeed:

http://flash.aopa.org/video/F16intercept.wmv

FAA releases radar video of F-16's close call with GA aircraft
By AOPA ePublishing staff

AOPA has obtained a video of the radar return and radio calls for the March 21 incident in which an F-16 pilot flew in close formation with the unsuspecting pilots of a Pilatus PC-12 and a Beechcraft Premier jet flying through an active military operations area. The pilots took aggressive maneuvers to try to prevent a midair.

The F-16 pilot, based out of Luke Air Force Base, was reprimanded. Luke officials have told AOPA that they will alter their local training program to avoid this type of encounter in the future.

AOPA has recommended that the Air Force and the FAA develop a way for center controllers to communicate with military controllers in real time. The two were not communicating at the time of the March incident.

Watch the close call and listen to the pilots’ frantic radio calls as they try to avoid the
 

alphaone

Well-Known Member
Lol, don't fly through a MOA and you won't get close to fighter jets. And I gaurentee an F-16 was not 10 ft from that guy.
 

coa787

Unknown Member
Tell that to the family of a pilot who was killed by an F-16 pilot who got closer than 10 ft in Class C airspace.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001212X22313&ntsbno=MIA01FA028A&akey=1
The two situations seem completely different. The first situation had an F-16 pilot that intentionally flew close to unsuspecting aircraft that were flying through the MOA. The second situation, which occured on November 16, 2000, had two F-16s that were out of the Military Training Route (MTR) and one of the F-16s unintentionally flew close to the C-172 and collided with it.
 

Minuteman

“Dongola”
Any collision involving this F-16 would probably have been unintentional as well.

But the chances of that happening are a lot better when you fail to maintain separation, and even better when the other aircraft doesn't know he's part of a formation.

Maybe he had to knock off whatever he was doing in the MOA because of the traffic, which could have been frustrating, but that's the nature of an MOA. Want it changed? Don't go harassing aircraft that aren't restricted from being there ... or, at least don't make it look intentional (yes, that's still a bad idea).
 

coa787

Unknown Member
Any collision involving this F-16 would probably have been unintentional as well.
Oh, you know what I meant. The accident F-16 didn't try to fly in formation with the C-172 and act like a jerk. From what I read in the NTSB report, it seemed to me like it was a head-on collision between the F-16 and C-172.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
Lol, don't fly through a MOA and you won't get close to fighter jets. And I gaurentee an F-16 was not 10 ft from that guy.
...And how would you guarantee that? How much time do you have in the F16?
I am not trying be a dink, but these were not weekend warriors out for a joyride through the MOA. These were two very experienced crews flying a/c that were advanced a/c.

...People are allowed to fly through MOA's otherwise ATC would not have allowed them through there. The one a/c had a 3000 fpm RA climb. They had to act outside the norm on order to avoid a possible mid-air because of the actions of this hot-shot pilot. It was not Joe Pilot in his C172 putting around a hot area.
 

HeyEng

NAHB Doesn't Give a Crap
Lol, don't fly through a MOA and you won't get close to fighter jets. And I gaurentee an F-16 was not 10 ft from that guy.
Yeah, come fly down here in Texas and see how that goes for you. Might take you a while to get where you're goin...

And, how do you KNOW how far the airplane was from the -16?
 

TurdBird

Well-Known Member
I was just going to post this. I totally agree with everything JEP has said so far. As the guy said, the F16 made him violate airspace. Was any of this necessary? I'm assuming not. I would love to hear the AF pilots excuse.
 

TurdBird

Well-Known Member
On a side note - does anyone know the story behind the intercept of that Lear? Training purposes?
 

tonyw

Well-Known Member
If you're allowed to fly through an MOA, you're allowed to fly through it without harassment or someone trying to show you up.

I am sure it is a pain in the ass for the military guys doing the training, but the rules are the rules.

And if you play by the rules, you shouldn't be harassed for doing it.
 

frog_flyer

FredFlyer
I'd think that lear is a C-21. The paint confuses me though.

Military transport for the generals.


"Protecting Golf Courses Around The World."
 

fish314

Well-Known Member
I'm a military guy who uses MOAs all the time, and I think that what that guy did was totally out of line. MOAs are open to VFR (but not IFR) traffic. That's the rules.

That being said, I would recommend that VFR pilots not fly through MOAs, or try to at least avoid flying right through the MIDDLE of the MOA. When they are in use, there are frequently MANY airplanes in them, moving very aggressively. Certainly those pilots are clearing, and some of them have targeting radar or other methods to help... but at the same time they are very busy doing whatever mission they are training for and may not see you before it is too late.

In my aircraft, I've got a NACWS to help clear, but it's a piece of junk. I'm pretty much just using my eyes...while I'm monitoring a student...flying in formation... 3 feet from ANOTHER student...while we are BOTH at 90 degrees of bank and 4000 ft/min VVI down. (You get the picture, I might not have all of my attention looking out for VFR traffic).

Also, if there is a VFR guy flying through the MOA, frequently the training rules will require they cease training until you leave the MOA. That's probably why the F-16 guy did what he did (not that it was right, by an means!).
 

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
Back when I was in the Navy, (if I recall correctly) unbriefed form was a no no.
Flying form with a civilian is nuts.
He joined up on a civilian, broke the rules and got caught.

The fact he received a reprimand makes it obvious he was way way out of line.
If I was the squadron commander I would have his backside for this stunt, a reprimand would just be the start.
 

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
Lol, don't fly through a MOA and you won't get close to fighter jets. And I gaurentee an F-16 was not 10 ft from that guy.
Dude, I was on reconnaisance planes in the Navy and have been intercepted by fighters from friendly nations and not so friendly nations.

You dont have a clue about how close they can get. If the professional pilot who was there and reacted to a TCAS RA says he got within 10 ft, he was 10 feet away. period
 

P&H

Well-Known Member
I don't really think this constitutes "violating airspace" bc you have to follow your RA without exception.



F16s are cool.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Lol, don't fly through a MOA and you won't get close to fighter jets. And I gaurentee an F-16 was not 10 ft from that guy.
I'd really love to do that, but half of Texas and almost all of Oklahoma is a MOA. I've not crossed one yet, and frankly, they do make me a little nervous at this stage of the game.

Do civvie controllers normally not advise military controllers about traffic entering the MOA? We've got ample radar coverage here in TX, I figure someone is going to see me on a scope if I'm at least 3-4000 MSL. Right?
 
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