Ego!
F-35 Grounded
- Thread starter SeanD
- Start date
Lawman
Well-Known Member
Except he wasn't asking questions. He was making statements with no first hand knowledge and arguably no second hand knowledge of the subject and acting as if it was informed opinion. Staying at a Holiday in Express and googling F-35 articles off the wifi does not make you an expert in the topic.
That's the problem with every one of these DOD programs is the number of arm chair generals and admirals who come out to decry what they see based on their opinion of the matter. Anybody remember around 99-2000 when all the end of the F-14 and Super Hornet is a gold plated turd arguments came out? Same stupidity different channel.
We are all aviation professionals, so we have all seen the brilliance in investigation the media does in our field. How any of you expect to find an informed open source on something as classified as 5th generation fighter development is beyond me.
C-182 flyer
Well-Known Member
You can pretty much bet that anyone who is talking about its capabilities, be it an engineer or someone who worked on the production line, does not know much of anything. There are programs for the jet that none of us know, or will ever know unless we fly it and are read into. If you do know about the programs, you damn sure are not talking about them. Several years ago I heard the comment that on the unclassified side it is a complete mess, however on the secret and beyond, it was pretty amazing.
Most Navy guys do not feel it is the right aircraft for the navy just do to the constraints on the carrier, the extra abuse it will get on the flight deck, and the maintenance considerations. For the Air Force, it seems like a good jet. Will it do the job in the Navy, of course it will.
Most Navy guys do not feel it is the right aircraft for the navy just do to the constraints on the carrier, the extra abuse it will get on the flight deck, and the maintenance considerations. For the Air Force, it seems like a good jet. Will it do the job in the Navy, of course it will.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
*shrug*. I mean, sticking to the fat kid analogy, I don't think the kid needs to know anything about baseball in order to say "you guys already have a perfectly good stadium, I read that other baseball players said it's fine". Now, he might be wrong, but being as it's his labor that is being taxed in order to build the thing for the supposed public good, "shut up and get back to work" is not something he should be hearing. Public spending is everyone's business.
Lawman
Well-Known Member
"I don't know why you need Crew Rest.... I've driven across country for a whole day and I was fine."
See how stupid that sounds to anyone like us that understands flying a plane isn't driving a car. Think of how that comes across to military pilots who are repeatedly told by people who don't know dick about the capabilities of their mission equipment that it's perfectly "adequate."
I could show you shortcomings in things on my 40 million dollar gunship that would make your hair stand up if you were read on. Adequate is not the way I want to get told to cross the FLOT on game day.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I think maybe I didn't express myself well. Like I said, he may or may not be right in what he's criticizing. If he's wrong, explain it to him. My suggestion was that "shut up, you don't know what you're talking about" is not an appropriate response. We're all paying for the toys, so we are all entitled to an opinion, educated or otherwise.
inigo88
Composite-lover
I met Dr. Paul Bevilaqua, former head of ADP Skunkworks and designer of the lift fan, at an AIAA lecture. I asked about some of the politics of why the program has stretched out so long. Suffice to say, he was not happy that some of the engineers in Ft Worth spent years redesigning the lift fan he had already completed, only to abandon their effort and go with his original design. I'm reading Kelly's autobiography now, and it certainly seems a far cry from how he would have done it.
Excuse me here, but at what point did I say "Ya'll don't know dick about what'cher talkin bout! IDIOTS!" Far from that. I posted a video from a very respected aircraft designer, which when I first saw it, piqued my curiosity. So I did some digging. I looked at what pilots were saying about it(who mostly had good things to say which I suspect is biased because they are playing with a new cool toy), I did some looking at published specifications for it(which IMO, don't give it raving reviews), looked at the mission it's supposed to fill(which IMO, tries to do to many things, which gives it handicaps in all of it's mission capabilities), and was asked "What's your area of expertise with this stuff?" Which I freely admitted to, none, so, educate me. So tell me again, what about that is "Ya'll is stupid and don't know dick?"
See, the thing here is I have an opinion. And I'm not afraid to express it. I also don't do any ego stroking just because I want to be liked. I would rather be hated because I spoke my mind and someone didn't like it than be liked because I "assimilated" to popular belief. But I am also willing to listen to ANYONE who doesn't come out guns ablazing just because they disagree with me. I can throw pot shots just as good as anyone here. Come off like an ass, and expect the same in return. Treat me with the same respect that I give you, and expect the shirt off my back. Ask anyone who knows me, and I mean really knows me. Yeah, I am opinionated, I have my beliefs. But I am also willing to listen when talked to, not at.
rockman2343@aol.com
Well-Known Member
I think the important thing is that even if it is a piece of • compared to our other fighters, it's still way better than anything anyone else has.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I'm no kid. This ain't my first rodeo. But feel free to tell me why.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Just look at the responses to my posts on my former employer. Then check out the reactions from people who didn't even work there. Assuming that I was overreacting and that I had a bad attitude. When in fact I was trying to speak out things that happened to me while I was employed there. I never once lied about my experiences and I never will. However the more you start defending your position the worse the personal attacks become. This is a slightly different context however:
Speaking the truth on a public message board mostly won't get you anywhere. Maybe I helped someone but it is rarely if ever acknowledged. Mostly people just criticize and cajole if they don't agree with your opinion. In the end you have to make a choice to either ignore it all or use this place as a resource for getting hired. Personal opinions are only really viewed negatively.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
The Marines (Department of the Navy) doesn't want Strike Raptors. Air Force has standard non VTOL aircraft. Marines and Navy need VTOL to operate off of LHD and LHA ships. The Navy on the other hand don't want the F-35C which is the carrier version. It got pushed into buying them by the Department of Defense.
Lawman
Well-Known Member
Excuse me but at what point did I levy you specifically in the don't know dick argument. I was responding to Boris' semi anecdotal example of sports knowledge with an example of how wrong that can be on this topic (military aviation). How many times has somebody in the media or general public stood up and embarrassed themselves speaking as a self proclaimed authority on any number of topics in aviation? It's almost comical if people didn't repeat those opinions. Now if you want to stick yourself in the locker with them by thinking that just because many who don't know dick about a subject automatically mean we who do interpret all those who speak out against it as with them, well that's your deal.
There's two ways you can look at this. Either:
1. You accept the fact that your opinion of the subject operates from an incredibly myopic point of total knowledge due to the nature of a secret weapons development program (not to mention the Limitations and capabilities of our current weapons and TTPs to use them).
Or
2. You continue to act like a guard house lawyer spewing third hand semi to completely inaccurate knowledge on the subject and treating anyone with a better picture with some sort of challenge as to prove you wrong before you step off the soapbox.
Frankly I don't really care what you do or who you talked too or googled on the subject. Unclassified charts and graphs make you just informed enough to be dangerous. The unfortunate thing is social media gives volume to a whole bunch of dangerously ill informed SME's. And Pierre Sprey is a • loon. He's been repeatedly proven wrong in his concepts as to what makes the ideal combat aircraft. If he had his way the AMRAAM missile and the F-22 would never have happened and we would be flying eye watering airshow display capable aircraft with no radars and daylight only capabilities. Probably why nobody in his industry circles takes him seriously.
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Lawman
Well-Known Member
The Marines have to have organic air power to accomplish their DOD mission.
A Marine Brigade does not equal an Army Brigade in terms of composition, firepower, and makeup. That's why they need the air. Where you would see something like 200+ Abrams tanks and multiple Battery's (8 guns each) of 155 artillery in the Army the Marines would have a third of that on a good day. All that heavy equipment that makes the Army a big bruiser of a weapon limits the quick reaction mission of the Marines. It's what also allows the Marines to maintain their self sustainability. An Army brigade will consume a lot more logistics depleting that stand alone time due to those heavier forces.
And yes we have used it before. The Marines provide that immediate reaction force to secure an area allowing you to conduct the buildup of an Army force. Take away their Air Power and they are limited to only low intensity conflicts like protecting an airport in some African country whose organic forces don't have anything heavier than jeeps or light armored vehicles like BTR/BMP. That means in a situation like we had in Desert Storm where 82nd jumped in immediately and the Marines rolled in with actual firepower a few days later to provide security for the months our buildup took, we wouldn't have had that blocking force to protect our assembly areas.
rockman2343@aol.com
Well-Known Member
DOD should've pushed a Strike Raptor with beefed up landing gear and slightly larger wingspan, if they were going to push them into finding anything. In my opinion the service, including the marines, will be fine with out VTOL. I just don't see what mission the harrier can perform that others can't, other than being parked at the front line, and we can base certain conventional at FOBs anyway. But I'm not a military pilot so take it for what it's worth.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
The whole war in Afghanistan and Iraq has taken the Marines out of their element and turned them into essentially a small army. With the pullout in Afghanistan underway, the Marine Corps will be refocusing on it's main role, which is a mobile amphibious strike force. It's all about portability. The Expeditionary Strike Groups steam independently from carrier battle groups and their air wings, so the Marines require an aircraft that can provide combat air support to the Marines landing on shore and must be able to forward base in areas with no runways or limited space. The AV-8B has filled that role for well over 30 years. The F-35B is currently the only aircraft that can fill that job.
The Navy has really had no interest in stealth aircraft since the A-12 program was scrapped. They have been and continue to be content with conventional aircraft such as the F/A-18. The Navy gets a major say so in their budget and which new toys they can fund. The DOD actually requested Lockheed design a Raptor that could operate from carriers. Lockheed could not come up with a design due to structural factors. The told the DOD that they would have to come up with a clean sheet design.
1). Could have fooled me with not directing it at me.
2). I have nothing to prove. Hence, the statement "educate me."
I based my opinion off of available information. I was unaware I wasn't allowed to do that. Color me "not knowing dick."
Thing is, this quote is from your 4th post. You claim to be some kind of mil guy. But no one knows who the heck you are yet. We all pretty much know each others backgrounds here. But yours has yet to be verified.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
A voice of moderation from a semi-informed guy.
In the case of NavAir, they learned something from the A-12 and V-22 programs. When a program is struggling, full disclosure is a better strategy than secrecy. Managing a struggling program is about managing the program and expectations. Disclosure of bad news is part of that process. Disclose and resolve. When you look at quotes by Admiral DJ Venlet, former head of NavAir and the F-35 program, you have to keep them in context. The biggest critic of the program was also the head of the program - that was his job. Venlet didn't wait until he was out of the program to bash the program, he was working to solve the problems.
As far as only -15 and -18 guys knowing enough to weigh in on the subject, it's a mixed bag. Maybe guys that have been involved in program development or evaluation and have access to good information. A JO Hornet driver might not know •, or even care. He's got other things on his mind and might just be echoing what he's heard.
More than ever, the public has information about the status of defense programs. They have the right to an opinion, in many cases their opinions are spot-on and match those held by the guys that push the buttons.
In the case of NavAir, they learned something from the A-12 and V-22 programs. When a program is struggling, full disclosure is a better strategy than secrecy. Managing a struggling program is about managing the program and expectations. Disclosure of bad news is part of that process. Disclose and resolve. When you look at quotes by Admiral DJ Venlet, former head of NavAir and the F-35 program, you have to keep them in context. The biggest critic of the program was also the head of the program - that was his job. Venlet didn't wait until he was out of the program to bash the program, he was working to solve the problems.
As far as only -15 and -18 guys knowing enough to weigh in on the subject, it's a mixed bag. Maybe guys that have been involved in program development or evaluation and have access to good information. A JO Hornet driver might not know •, or even care. He's got other things on his mind and might just be echoing what he's heard.
More than ever, the public has information about the status of defense programs. They have the right to an opinion, in many cases their opinions are spot-on and match those held by the guys that push the buttons.
Lawman
Well-Known Member
Bunk, E6B, and Huggy know exactly who the I am. You know the guys you tried to have a stand up argument with after they called you on what you were basing your garbage F-35 opinion on.
Again nobody cares if you have an opinion, but when you go spouting it off as gospel on an aviation forum and a guy with a much better prospective turns around and calls you on it, might be better to just go to the corner and color. Remember you started making statements about he F-35 before Bunk or me or anybody else called you on it. Don't try to play some victim sympathy card because we came down on you.
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