F-18 Crash Near Mt. Rainier

[Roger Roger]

Continued low level in deteriorating Wx on VR MTRs has morted a surprisingly large number of aircrew. Knowing when to route abort and climb out of the route structure, executing it in a timely manner, and sticking with it and not trying to descend back down, is imperative. Unless you were flying an aircraft that was fully all-weather/IMC navigation capable at low level, such as an A-6E Intruder, F-111 Aardvark, B-1 Lancer or B-52 Stratofortress, continuing in deteriorating Wx and attempting to maintain VMC, just isn’t going to happen. And routes that allow all-weather/IMC ops are IR routes anyway. Yet again, this isn’t a new method or causal factor or series of factors, to have ended in an aircrew’s demise. There’s one from 1986 just northeast of PHX on VR-239 in the west side of the Mazatzal mountains. I wrote about it here:

Thread 'Caught Between the Weather and a Hard Place'

Feb 10, 2011

Pilots are creatures of habit with a built-in tendency to rely on what seems to conform with past experience..

2 April 1986

Mazatzal Peak, 12 miles southwest of Payson, Arizona

Northrop T-38A Talon, 67-14836, c/s Willie 51
82nd Flying Training Wing (FTW)/97th Flying Training Squadron (FTS)
Williams AFB (KIWA), Chandler, Arizona

2 Fatal

Aviation is often described as some other jobs are, such as firefighting: Hours of boredom puncutated by moments of sheer terror. In many situations, loosely speaking, the transition from boredom to sheer terror is...

• MikeD
• Replies: 13
• Forum: Technical Talk

• 

Same thing that has wrecked several aircraft in southeast Alaska since the advent of moving map GPS etc… if one has the equipment and the training, there comes a point where it’s safer just to climb away from the terrain and into the weather and figure it out from there. Of course having a plan for that is important too, evidenced by the Bonanza crash a couple years back that impacted a mountain in level cruise on a direct line between JNU and YAK presumably in IMC.

 

[MikeD]

Same thing that has wrecked several aircraft in southeast Alaska since the advent of moving map GPS etc… if one has the equipment and the training, there comes a point where it’s safer just to climb away from the terrain and into the weather and figure it out from there. Of course having a plan for that is important too, evidenced by the Bonanza crash a couple years back that impacted a mountain in level cruise on a direct line between JNU and YAK presumably in IMC.

Indeed true. Route abort is hammered into us when it comes to low level training, with the advantage we have of being able to initiate a zoom climb through the Wx to rapidly get clear of terrain. But this is also a double-edged sword, because due to that ability, I’ve seen some pilots who had a mindset of pushing things farther than they should, because they possess the ability to rapidly escape. But if one doesn’t execute that ability when they should, that escape ability won’t end up mattering.

One can enter Cumulogranite clouds, they will not exit from them.

 

[Roger Roger]

the advantage we have of being able to initiate a zoom climb through the Wx to rapidly get clear of terrain.

Ha, that reminds me of a story one of the old school Lear pilots told me about one of his first trips in the 35. He was looking at some ODP down in Ketchikan and briefing it up for old school conventional nav, and the crusty old captain told him something along the lines of “son, at the rate this thing climbs by the time the wheels are in the wells we’ll be higher than all the terrain within 20 miles of the airport”

 

[MikeD]

Ha, that reminds me of a story one of the old school Lear pilots told me about one of his first trips in the 35. He was looking at some ODP down in Ketchikan and briefing it up for old school conventional nav, and the crusty old captain told him something along the lines of “son, at the rate this thing climbs by the time the wheels are in the wells we’ll be higher than all the terrain within 20 miles of the airport”

Ha! I mean, the Lear is indeed a machine when it comes to speed and climb ability. Some friends I knew who had flown the short fuselage 20-series, 23/24, said it was the closest thing to the fighters they used to fly in its maneuverability and handling qualities, as well as power.

 

[FlyingAccountant]

I'll just say this. Nobody knows who "mover" or "gonky" were. They were nobodies. Now have apparently convinced a bunch of people they are in the know. They were no-load dumb •s who sucked at their jobs and were shown the door. I wouldn't take anything they say as being anything informative. I wish these disgraces to the profession would go away and shut their mouths for the sake of everyone else

Mover has admitted he flew the F18 but never operated off a carrier. That has to be pretty rare, right?

 

[scooter2525]

It is very different.

Forgot my sarcasm tag.

 

[Wardogg]

It is very different.

I don't think it's any different than using screen names outside of JC. when I had in n out with @derg awhile ago; he didn't even blink when I gave them my name. "scooter2525; double double animal style up!"

Neo called. Said he talked to Morpheus. Wanted you to know that using a screen name in the outside world is no different than having people call you by a nickname or callsign.

Not everyone goes by their name on their birth certificate.

 

[///AMG]

Mover has admitted he flew the F18 but never operated off a carrier. That has to be pretty rare, right?

We have had USAF exchange opportunities in the F/A-18 for decades, and reciprocal USN exchange opportunities for USAF folks to come to the F/A-18. The USN billets for USAF pilots are primarily non-operational, so they wouldn't involve carrier ops. If you go back about 20-25 years, there were a few limited jobs within operational EA-6B squadrons for USAF pilots that actually did go to the boat, and then that all got shut off in around that timeframe (early 2000's). They continued to send USAF back seaters to Prowler boat squadrons, but not pilots. I'm sure there has been a USAF pilot go to a USN F/A-18 boat squadron, but I don't know of any during my career. What mover did was the more typical assignment to a reserve adversary squadron, in his case specifically VFA-204 out of NOLA. So he did his Hornet tour there, and as you/he mention, they did not operate off the boat anymore by that point, as the Navy reserves mostly got out of the operational side of things by the early 2000's (when we got rid of reserve numbered airwings and a bunch of reserve squadrons)......only VAQ-209 still remains, on the tactical aviation side, and they do land based deployments exclusively.

*of note, we actually did recently send the first USAF pilot to a USN VAQ/Growler boat squadron. I don't think there will necessarily be more, they just were so critically short manned that they needed the help. Up until then, AF people in VAQ go to land based/exped squadrons only.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

One of the first AF Prowler pilots showed up with a Centurian patch. He was a Navy A-7 guy that ended up flying A-7’s in the Guard.

 

[knot4u]

Mover has admitted he flew the F18 but never operated off a carrier. That has to be pretty rare, right?

Admitted? That seems harsh, I guess he spent a bunch of time flying single seat fighters and was deployed and flew in combat in an F-16 for the ANG. I'm not defending him but he did fly fighters for the AF and the USN. Walking away from a widebody pilot job at a major US airline (understand I get all of my 121 knowledge from JetCareers.com) seems like a horrible life decision. Maybe he's independently wealthy? I've never read any of his books. Maybe YouTube money covers the mortgage? I don't know. Do you care, do I care, does anyone care?

 

[Pilot Fighter]

If you create and edit your own Wiki page, it’s unlikely that I’m going to enjoy your content.

 

[MikeD]

We have had USAF exchange opportunities in the F/A-18 for decades, and reciprocal USN exchange opportunities for USAF folks to come to the F/A-18. The USN billets for USAF pilots are primarily non-operational, so they wouldn't involve carrier ops. If you go back about 20-25 years, there were a few limited jobs within operational EA-6B squadrons for USAF pilots that actually did go to the boat, and then that all got shut off in around that timeframe (early 2000's). They continued to send USAF back seaters to Prowler boat squadrons, but not pilots. I'm sure there has been a USAF pilot go to a USN F/A-18 boat squadron, but I don't know of any during my career. What mover did was the more typical assignment to a reserve adversary squadron, in his case specifically VFA-204 out of NOLA. So he did his Hornet tour there, and as you/he mention, they did not operate off the boat anymore by that point, as the Navy reserves mostly got out of the operational side of things by the early 2000's (when we got rid of reserve numbered airwings and a bunch of reserve squadrons)......only VAQ-209 still remains, on the tactical aviation side, and they do land based deployments exclusively.

*of note, we actually did recently send the first USAF pilot to a USN VAQ/Growler boat squadron. I don't think there will necessarily be more, they just were so critically short manned that they needed the help. Up until then, AF people in VAQ go to land based/exped squadrons only.

Two guys from my second A-10 squadron went to EA-6B exchange tours at Whidbey, to one of the then-four expeditionary squadrons that had been stood up. One guy went at the beginning of my tour, the second guy near the end of my tour. First guy got day boat qualed, even though the exped squadrons were land based, the second guy they said no boat quals anymore. The assignment seemed interesting so I put in for it during assignment time, but there weren’t any openings for USAF pilots, only for USAF EWOs (3:1 ratio and all). Would’ve been an interesting tour I think, but timing is everything with anything, especially as it comes to exchange tours, whether interservice or international.

 

[knot4u]

Two guys from my second A-10 squadron went to EA-6B exchange tours at Whidbey, to one of the then-four expeditionary squadrons that had been stood up. One guy went at the beginning of my tour, the second guy near the end of my tour. First guy got day boat qualed, even though the exped squadrons were land based, the second guy they said no boat quals anymore. The assignment seemed interesting so I put in for it during assignment time, but there weren’t any openings for USAF pilots, only for USAF EWOs (3:1 ratio and all). Would’ve been an interesting tour I think, but timing is everything with anything, especially as it comes to exchange tours, whether interservice or international.

I have to imagine successfully landing on a carrier in all types of weather repeatedly and successfully would lead to a justified arrogance, not mean spirited, just balls on display through actions. Carrier pilots deserve respect, not because of their character, but because being that good consistently is hard.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Two guys from my second A-10 squadron went to EA-6B exchange tours at Whidbey, to one of the then-four expeditionary squadrons that had been stood up. One guy went at the beginning of my tour, the second guy near the end of my tour. First guy got day boat qualed, even though the exped squadrons were land based, the second guy they said no boat quals anymore. The assignment seemed interesting so I put in for it during assignment time, but there weren’t any openings for USAF pilots, only for USAF EWOs (3:1 ratio and all). Would’ve been an interesting tour I think, but timing is everything with anything, especially as it comes to exchange tours, whether interservice or international.

EW matters. Still puzzled why the AF gave up on the EF-111.

 

[MikeD]

EW matters. Still puzzled why the AF gave up on the EF-111.

They never should’ve. Big mistake thinking they wouldn’t need it anymore. And that was one heck of a capable airframe. Same with the F-4G, far more capable than the F-16 Blk 50 CJ that replaced it.