Extracurriculars

averyrm

averyrm

Well-Known Member
So I'll be a bit frank. Two main things that so far have turned me off of 121 flying are reading all of the lav vitrol, and listening to 121.5 on the east coast - and then thinking about having to sit next to "that" person for the next few decades.

I do fully admit that I'm ignorant in this area as I've never flown 121. If that specific worry is unfair, I apologize.

I'm quite fortunate at my current place. Great people, gone from home ~1500-2000 hours a year, and decent pay.

What I'm wondering is - what is available other than line pilot? How does teaching work at your shop? What might an instructor schedule look like and how soon can you expect a good one? What does a good instructor/something else schedule look like and how long would it take to get there? If I wanted to do something other just "fly the line," what options does one have available? Why would or wouldn't one choose that?

Quite related, how much line flying would it take a 91/135 person to understand enough to branch out into a different path with a solid knowledge base?

I feel I'm a pretty decent instructor and I love to help folks get to that "aha" moment. I'd also like to have a broader impact on the industry than I currently do - however that may evolve. I am, however, ignorant as to the specific options in 121-land.

I appreciate your expertise and understand this might be an exceptionally broad ask, but I do want to know what options a willing person has if they want to do more.
 
averyrm said:
So I'll be a bit frank. Two main things that so far have turned me off of 121 flying are reading all of the lav vitrol, and listening to 121.5 on the east coast - and then thinking about having to sit next to "that" person for the next few decades.

I do fully admit that I'm ignorant in this area as I've never flown 121. If that specific worry is unfair, I apologize.

I'm quite fortunate at my current place. Great people, gone from home ~1500-2000 hours a year, and decent pay.

What I'm wondering is - what is available other than line pilot? How does teaching work at your shop? What might an instructor schedule look like and how soon can you expect a good one? What does a good instructor/something else schedule look like and how long would it take to get there? If I wanted to do something other just "fly the line," what options does one have available? Why would or wouldn't one choose that?

Quite related, how much line flying would it take a 91/135 person to understand enough to branch out into a different path with a solid knowledge base?

I feel I'm a pretty decent instructor and I love to help folks get to that "aha" moment. I'd also like to have a broader impact on the industry than I currently do - however that may evolve. I am, however, ignorant as to the specific options in 121-land.

I appreciate your expertise and understand this might be an exceptionally broad ask, but I do want to know what options a willing person has if they want to do more.
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Every place is different. At AA, an FO can be an sim instructor pilot with 500 hours in type. It seems like a nice gig, as I believe you are guaranteed 90 hours at 12 year FO pay. The problem is sim instructing full time can crush your soul (ask me how I know). At any 121 company, if you live in the mothership base, you will have many more opportunities to do non-flying jobs. You can get into management, teach various subjects at the school house, do special projects like fleet manager (keeping manuals and procedures updated), and other things. If you aren't willing to move to the mothership, your opportunities for this type of work are extremely limited. You can also get into union work, as well. Some union positions will take you off trips to do the job.

With all of that said, I have only flown with a couple of jerks under 121. You can bid to not fly with them, and even call off the trip if the conflict becomes a safety concern. Usually, you can redirect the conversation to a mutual interest, like BBQ or golf or something. The breakdown of people I fly with are as follows:

80%: OK. They fly the airplane by the book and we get along OK. Not someone I would hang out with outside of work, but good people.
10%: Awesome. We get along great and the trip goes by quickly.
7% : Either suck at flying or have a crappy personality. You can get by OK with these guys, and just remind yourself you only have to see them for 3 more days and likely will never see them again
3% or less: Suck at flying and have a crap personality. You never want to see them again.
 
At jetblue you can be a full time instructor, part time adjuct instructor and split your time between the school or line. You can also work in the cheif pilots office, or on other projects as available. Depending on senioirty you can bid a line or bid reserve if you've been flying too much and want a break. Depending on senioirity you can fly 100 hours to 1000 hours a year. It 's up to you.

I have flown under a lot of the different facets of this industry (121 Pax/ Cargo, 135 Pax / Cargo, 121 Public Use, and 135 DOT 380 exemption). Each type and employer have their pros and cons. What I have found is the major airlines offer the best pay, benefits, and job security. Most corp operators cannot match higher end pay or benefits of the majors.

Not matter where I have flown there are guys I have enjoyed flying with and guys I didn't prefer to fly with. But the best part of the majors it's only a couple of days witha guy you don't care for and you may not fly with him/her again for months or years.


Everyone is different. Fly in the part of the industry that you enjoy the most. I have run into guys that have come to the majors and have gone back to corp because they don't like the doing the day in and day out of stuff of the airlines and like the FBO and sometimes more exotic locations of corp life.
 
Not really the question you asked, but at most places, once you get a bit of seniority, you can bid a schedule (especially if money isn't everything) that allows you enough free time that your extracurriculars can be away from, and totally unrelated to, work. I run a search and rescue team, as well as do a few other (semi related) things. Flying is fun and all (I'm getting back in to the plane for the first time in almost a year this week and I'm really looking forward to it) but I want to get my satisfaction in life from something other than the thing that I get my pay check from.

On the work side, if even flying 12 - 14 days a month is too much "work", you can always do instructing like you mentioned, or go into flight ops management, or work on the safety side. Then there is the whole union side of the coin as well. I've been doing that end of things and there were steady periods of time where I as flying 6 to 8 days a month and doing office work (contract enforcement or negotiations) 4 to 6 days a month. Living in the main office location is going to help with both sides of that, but there are plenty of people to commute in for a 4 day block of union work every month and I'd imagine you can do that on the Company side as well in some cases.
 
///AMG said:
Not to thread jack, but dang, didn't realize you'd been out for a long time. Congrats on getting back!
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Thanks. Started as a 3 month medical leave for ankle surgery and then I missed all my CQ options due to union stuff and then it took 4 months to get scheduled for requal. Was supposed to fly yesterday but the check airman wasn't qualified on landings and they didn't have a spare one.
 
BobDDuck said:
Thanks. Started as a 3 month medical leave for ankle surgery and then I missed all my CQ options due to union stuff and then it took 4 months to get scheduled for requal. Was supposed to fly yesterday but the check airman wasn't qualified on landings and they didn't have a spare one.
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That sounds like a series of unfortunate events. Hopefully you end up with a PDX layover again soon.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Sorry but the first paragraph rubs the wrong way. So 121 pukes are too annoying to fly with, but you’d love to teach this crowd?
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It rubs you the wrong way because while you read some of what he wrote, you didn’t try to understand what he wrote and why he wrote it.

Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

Reading comprehension is the ability to understand the meaning of written text. It involves not just decoding words, but also integrating that information with prior knowledge, analyzing the text, and making predictions. In essence, it's the process of constructing meaning from a text.

There are many clues in what he wrote that shows your assessment is wrong.

Two things he knows about 121 are what we say here at JC - think Alaska threads - and what he hears from 121 pilots on guard. Both of those things are very annoying. He then goes on to say he admits ignorance about 121 operations and apologizes in advance if his assessment is unfair.

He then seeks information about aspects of 121 operations… and that’s sort of the main mission here at JC… information you personally have and can help with, but you didn’t.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Sorry but the first paragraph rubs the wrong way. So 121 pukes are too annoying to fly with, but you’d love to teach this crowd?
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And wow… I could have saved myself some time because ChatGPT just laid it all out better than I did.

In response to the OP:

This is a thoughtful and introspective post, and it’s a good starting point for someone evaluating whether (and how) to move into Part 121 flying while aiming for more than just a line pilot role. Here’s a direct and informed breakdown that addresses your questions and considerations:

Concerns About Culture (Lav Vitriol & 121.5)

Your concerns aren’t uncommon, and you’re right to flag them. Yes, 121.5 can be a dumpster fire of egos and immature banter, especially over the East Coast. And yes, there are some jaded line pilots out there. But:

They’re not the majority. There are plenty of professional, mission-focused, and collaborative folks at 121 carriers.

**Company culture varies widely

Response to your reply:

This response is emotionally reactive and lacks charitable interpretation. Here’s a breakdown of its tone, assumptions, and overall effect:

Tone
  • Defensive and confrontational. The use of “rubs the wrong way” and “121 pukes” immediately signals irritation and sarcasm.
  • Dismissive. Instead of engaging with the original poster’s (OP’s) self-aware and curious tone, it shuts down the conversation with a rhetorical jab.
Assumptions
  • Misinterprets intent. The OP acknowledged ignorance, openly admitted possible unfairness, and expressed a desire to learn. The response assumes malice or condescension, which the OP clearly tried to avoid.
  • False equivalence. The responder implies that being concerned about interpersonal dynamics means the OP is unfit or hypocritical for wanting to teach in that environment — ignoring that teaching can be a way to improve the very culture the OP found off-putting.
Effect on Discussion
  • Discourages further dialogue. This kind of reply can make others hesitant to ask honest questions or share concerns.
  • Misses an opportunity. Rather than challenging the OP constructively or offering insight into the realities of the 121 world, it reinforces the kind of negativity the OP was wary of.
Better Alternative

A more productive response might have acknowledged the OP’s curiosity and concern, then offered a counterpoint like:

“I get where you’re coming from, but I’d encourage you not to judge 121 flying by what you hear on 121.5 or a few online rants. A lot of us are passionate professionals, and instructors are especially needed to help steer the culture in a better direction.”

Summary

This reply contributes little value, comes off as gatekeeping, and reflects the exact type of attitude that might turn someone away from 121 flying. A more constructive, empathetic tone would better serve both the OP and the broader aviation community.
 
Roger Roger said:
IMHO the best thing about 121, especially coming from a 135 background, is NOT having any ancillary duties and the simplicity that comes of just being a cog in the machine. That said the dergs, jhugz, ian js, etc who do extracurricular stuff do seem to enjoy it.
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Exactly. One of the things I absolutely LOVE about 121 is the variety. There’s something for everyone. After leaving the military, it was wonderful to just be a line pilot FO with no other responsibilities. Things were becoming a little routine so I found some cool things to do with the company and have enjoyed it.

@averyrm - the options for extracurriculars at 121 shops are wide and varied. Depending on the shop and environment of course, it isn’t hard to find a niche you’d enjoy in my opinion.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Sorry but the first paragraph rubs the wrong way. So 121 pukes are too annoying to fly with, but you’d love to teach this crowd?
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And this is pretty cool - here’s how my own response could’ve been improved. I don’t disagree with it.

Your response is already solid, but since you’re asking for a deeper critique, here are a few areas that could be improved or refined depending on your goals—whether that’s persuasion, tone, clarity, or forum diplomacy.

🔧 1. Opening Line: Could Be More Invitational Than Confrontational

Current:

“It rubs you the wrong way because while you read some of what he wrote, you didn’t try to understand what he wrote and why he wrote it.”

Why It Might Be Improved:

• This line puts the other person immediately on the defensive. It tells them what they did wrong, rather than guiding them to consider it themselves.

• It could be perceived as condescending—even if accurate—which may harden the person’s stance rather than open them to reconsidering.

Improved Version (Examples):

• “I think there’s a chance you might’ve read it a bit differently than it was intended.”

• “It might help to look at why he framed things the way he did—there’s a bit more going on than it seems at first read.”

This softens the edge while keeping the same critique intact.

🔧 2. The Definitions Are Useful, But Slightly Pedantic in Tone

Current:

“Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

Reading comprehension is the ability to understand the meaning of written text…”

Why It Might Be Improved:

• Definitions can come off as teacherly or patronizing, especially in a peer-to-peer forum.

• It could distract from your main point if the reader feels like they’re being lectured rather than engaged.

Alternative Approach:

• Weave the concepts into your point without formal definitions. For example:

“If we take a second to look at what he’s actually saying—and where he’s coming from—it’s clear he’s not bashing 121 pilots. He’s sharing a first impression and asking for help understanding more.”

You still reference empathy and reading comprehension, but it feels more like conversation than instruction.

🔧 3. Clarity in the “Alaska threads” Reference

Current:

“Two things he knows about 121 are what we say here at JC - think Alaska threads - and what he hears from 121 pilots on guard.”

Why It Might Be Improved:

• The “Alaska threads” reference is probably clear to Jetcareers regulars, but if a reader is newer or less familiar with forum culture, it might be lost.

• Even for those familiar, it could be more precise.

Possible Revision:

“The only exposure he’s had to 121 flying is reading the kind of venting we often see here—like in the Alaska threads—and hearing chatter on guard. Both can give a really skewed picture.”

This version anchors the example more clearly in your point.

🔧 4. Sharpen the Final Point

Current:

“…and that’s sort of the main mission here at JC… information you personally have and can help with, but you didn’t.”

Why It Might Be Improved:

• The ending is strong in content but a bit blunt. “But you didn’t” can feel accusatory and might lead to defensiveness.

• You have a chance to challenge the person while still inviting them back into the conversation.

Possible Revision:

“That’s kind of the whole point of JC—sharing insight with folks who are trying to learn more. You have that knowledge, and this could’ve been a great chance to use it.”

This keeps the critique but ends on a more collaborative note.

✅ Summary of Suggestions

If you’re aiming to persuade and raise the discourse (rather than just win an argument), these tweaks can help your message land better with a broader audience—including lurkers who may not respond but are reading to learn.
 
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I will say, while I’ve flown with idiots here and there, I feel like my airline does a good job hiring culture fits. Here more than any other company I’ve flown with, the Cool Guy to Douchebag ratio has been really good. I’d imagine that Delta, American, WN, etc. are very similar.
 
Holy chatGPT :)


Yes, fair enough. I think the other posters have good answers. We we haven’t hired in a while, so not much going on here.




Oh, we did have a special program. Newhires hired as instructors for 3 yrs, gain seniority and longevity for those 3 yrs while teaching class and sims. Then at the 36 month mark, go to the line - presumably as a senior line holder. Well, we hired them. And then hiring stopped. So forced to the lien they were. I flew with 2 of them. And they were miserable as ever. I get it, the rug was ripped from their feet for the cushy deal they signed up for. In one case, he was a SEA resident supposed to be a SEA instructor, instead got forced LAX FO and has to commute now. That’s brutal but it is the reality of the industry. Buyer be warned.


We don’t have any instructor openings at the moment. We were hiring for our FCF team, but that is CAs only and SEA-based only.
 
Roger Roger said:
IMHO the best thing about 121, especially coming from a 135 background, is NOT having any ancillary duties and the simplicity that comes of just being a cog in the machine. That said the dergs, jhugz, ian js, etc who do extracurricular stuff do seem to enjoy it.
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This is some of what I wonder about with 121, most people I've talked to seem to join you in this sentiment. In fact, most everyone I've talked to says they're very happy that they're just flying and cashing a paycheck.

I obviously like the idea of scheduling flexibility, relative career stability, and pay from 121 but I've really never been one to clock in, clock out and keep my head down. Hence why I was curious about options other than line.

I figured posting here might give some other people in a similar situation something to think about as well. Honestly there's a really high chance I'm sticking where I am.

I appreciate everyone's replies thus far.
 
jhugz said:
I will say, while I’ve flown with idiots here and there, I feel like my airline does a good job hiring culture fits. Here more than any other company I’ve flown with, the Cool Guy to Douchebag ratio has been really good. I’d imagine that Delta, American, WN, etc. are very similar.
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I thought the same until our TA failed. I've lost respect for so many people and generally avoid most interactions.
 
averyrm said:
So I'll be a bit frank. Two main things that so far have turned me off of 121 flying are reading all of the lav vitrol, and listening to 121.5 on the east coast - and then thinking about having to sit next to "that" person for the next few decades.

I do fully admit that I'm ignorant in this area as I've never flown 121. If that specific worry is unfair, I apologize.

I'm quite fortunate at my current place. Great people, gone from home ~1500-2000 hours a year, and decent pay.

What I'm wondering is - what is available other than line pilot? How does teaching work at your shop? What might an instructor schedule look like and how soon can you expect a good one? What does a good instructor/something else schedule look like and how long would it take to get there? If I wanted to do something other just "fly the line," what options does one have available? Why would or wouldn't one choose that?

Quite related, how much line flying would it take a 91/135 person to understand enough to branch out into a different path with a solid knowledge base?

I feel I'm a pretty decent instructor and I love to help folks get to that "aha" moment. I'd also like to have a broader impact on the industry than I currently do - however that may evolve. I am, however, ignorant as to the specific options in 121-land.

I appreciate your expertise and understand this might be an exceptionally broad ask, but I do want to know what options a willing person has if they want to do more.
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ANother vote for being just another cog in the machine. Do your job (youll like 95% of the people you fly with) and go home. If you want more tasks theyre easy to volunteer for. At this stage in life, I have no desire to go to the school house like a 9 to 5 er. I like good overnights and the freedom they provide (alot of the times that means slam click, sometimes it doesnt). Do no short sight yourself over some perception from forums. I can't stand a high percentage of the regular posters on our company forums, but that doesn't represent the reality of what it's like flying on the line.
 
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