Expected rate of descent?
- Thread starter Pachong
- Start date
pilotmg1501
Well-Known Member
Plan B: I have no idea what this means, a "good rate" in an early descent for me is 1500-2000 fpm, but does that translate to what you (or every other controller) want?
Plan C: Expedite again in an early descent to me only means 2000-maybe2500 fpm, but again, what does that mean for you??
I'd like to avoid the turns, but I'd also like to avoid having to descend to the low thirties 500 miles out (I'm talking to you, Chicago Center) and then again to below 10, 100 miles out. (once again talking to you Chicago Center).
I'm not picking on you specifically, but personally I'd rather have a controller tell me what descent rate they need or even better, just give me a crossing.
If as controllers you want to know why we resist, it's because the descent is super pre-mature, generally. (even for posted altitudes on an arrival) Early descents screw with fuel planning.
FM_Weasel
Well-Known Member
It's plain language. There is no official meaning.
Is that faster than what you'd normally dial in? If so, thanks, that's what we need.
Stinger
Well-Known Member
"a good rate"
"no delay"
"expedite"
Basically whatever is normal for you, just increase that by whatever you're comfortable with. I think it's more of a Center thing, but there's also the phrase "be level at (altitude) in (3) minutes" and it's up to the pilot to know if they can meet the restriction.
"no delay"
"expedite"
Basically whatever is normal for you, just increase that by whatever you're comfortable with. I think it's more of a Center thing, but there's also the phrase "be level at (altitude) in (3) minutes" and it's up to the pilot to know if they can meet the restriction.
We work every airline everyday, we know your normal rates, so a good rate is anything above that. Expedite would be significantly about your normal rate. So your descending at 500fpm because you think I gave you a descent really far out for no reason (there are reasons but who needs to go into that), I say give me a good rate down through FLXXX I would like to get in your head that maybe the descent was for a reason. Maybe you bump it up to 1000fpm-1500fpm. Expedite - traffic - I am now showing you why I am descending you early - so bump it up even more to miss that - maybe 2000fpm, I would never expect you to do more. Though, when you forget to hit descend on a crossing restriction your good rate magically jumps exponentially, I have seen 3000fpm+ in such cases. On the contrary, when I forget to descend you its "we can't make that".
FM_Weasel
Well-Known Member
Treating "good rate," "no delay," and "expedite" differently is just made-up individual preference. All are terms used to get an aircraft to increase their rate of climb/descent. Only one of them is covered in the ATC manual for dealing with airborne aircraft. Trying to figure out what "good rate" means requires figuring out what every single controller who uses it THINKS it means.
"Expedite" (which is in the manual) is used to avoid the development of an imminent situation. Though there's still no specific rate associated with it, in terms of FPM, it means to modify the rate to be greater than what you would normally do. The alternative is needing to be assigned something else to avoid traffic. When used in conjunction with other instructions it means to perform that action more quickly or at a greater rate than typical.
"Expedite" (which is in the manual) is used to avoid the development of an imminent situation. Though there's still no specific rate associated with it, in terms of FPM, it means to modify the rate to be greater than what you would normally do. The alternative is needing to be assigned something else to avoid traffic. When used in conjunction with other instructions it means to perform that action more quickly or at a greater rate than typical.
learhawkerbe400
Well-Known Member
The speed brakes are for our mistakes, not yours. Haha seriously they can really shake the airplane.
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
Please ask for vectors if you prefer that to shaking the plane apart. Often the crossing restriction is only to meet an agreement with the next sector or facility and there is not necessarily any traffic at the moment. It might be no problem for the controller to give you delay vectors until you are on the descent profile.