Exiting a runway on to the active runway

flyboy04

flyboy04

Well-Known Member
Well just when i think i have this stuff down something comes up that makes me unsure. When landing on runway that intersects another active runway, my normal instinct is to turn left or right at the first exit and get off the runway, would this be ok if the first exit was an active runway, or could this mess things up big time? OR should i always stay on the runway until im told to exit because if this is so ive been doing it wrong for some time :). Im interested to know what you guys think.
 
That was always one of my pet peeves. NEVER exit onto another runway, active or otherwise. 1) It's contrary to the AIM, but 2) It's a bad habit. Harmles (relatively) if that runway is inactive, but if it's active, that is a Class A waiting to happen. Can't go wrong with a taxiway, unless otherwise directed by ATC.
 
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER exit onto another runway unless you want tower to rip you another one. I did that once before and will never do it again.
 
I once landed at an airport and was told by tower to turn left off the runway on to another runway, and contact ground.

When I contacted ground, they were like "You do realise you're on a runway???"

:sitaware:
:banghead:
 
Both times I landed at Kalamazoo Michigan, I was Instructed (on my progressive taxi) to turn left onto another runway off the active and didn't touch taxiway until basically I was right in front of the FBO. Granted, less traffic there, and runway winds, AND tower was the same guy as ground...The other runway was just the easiest way to get to where I was going. It was a straight shot and the taxiway system from where I was would have led me in a huge circle around the airport.

cheers.
 
Tower will often have you exit onto a runway or advise you that a runway is available for exit. Happens all the time in DCA when landing 1 and turning off on 33/15 or landing 19 and turning off on 4/22. However, if tower doesn't say anything, I wouldn't be making that turn. Same thing with taking a reverse high speed.
 
Goldmember said:
Both times I landed at Kalamazoo Michigan, I was Instructed (on my progressive taxi) to turn left onto another runway off the active and didn't touch taxiway until basically I was right in front of the FBO. Granted, less traffic there, and runway winds, AND tower was the same guy as ground...The other runway was just the easiest way to get to where I was going. It was a straight shot and the taxiway system from where I was would have led me in a huge circle around the airport.

cheers.
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That's pretty typical, depending upon who is working tower/ground (when combined). There is a taxiway (foxtrot) that is parallel to that runway (9/27), but it is skinnier than most and they will often (usually?) send planes down the runway instead. FBO is at the west end of 9/27.
04285
 
flyboy04 said:
Well just when i think i have this stuff down something comes up that makes me unsure. When landing on runway that intersects another active runway, my normal instinct is to turn left or right at the first exit and get off the runway, would this be ok if the first exit was an active runway, or could this mess things up big time? OR should i always stay on the runway until im told to exit because if this is so ive been doing it wrong for some time :). Im interested to know what you guys think.
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I think you need to sit down and revisit this with a CFI. This is basic information that you need to understand clearly.
 
I am a CFI, and ive always went to the next taxiway unless instructed otherwise ,but there was a situation where had I made the runway, the guy behind me wouldnt have been so close, and it was almost as if the tower had planned on my exit at the runway. This question was meant more contollers and i guess i couldve been a little more clear on the question. Thanks for the replies.
 
I personally never exit onto another runway unless Specifically told to do so by ATC. As said earlier, too much potential for a "Class A"
 
What about when the tower says "right turn when able, ground point nine" and the next right turn happens to be a runway? I just did it in SDF, 35L onto 29, and nobody said a word about it.
 
Did it a few weeks back at FLO. Wasn't a problem at all. Granted, during all my ATC-CTI training, I was under the assumption that it was a no-no. Now as a pilot, I've been told that it isn't an issue by some, while it is an issue to others. I still consider it an issue, and will only do it after making sure it's okay according to whoever is in the TWR cab.
 
DE727UPS said:
What about when the tower says "right turn when able, ground point nine" and the next right turn happens to be a runway? I just did it in SDF, 35L onto 29, and nobody said a word about it.
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That is just WRONG. It's wrong on the part of ATC to allow you to do that. 100% wrong. Can I beat this drum any louder? ATC was wrong to not say something to you. 'Right turn when able' does not supercede the AIM instruction telling you 'next available taxiway.' ATC fully contributed to you developing a bad and unsafe habit.

Okay, you do it at SDF and maybe those crossing runways are inactive and no big deal 99 times out of 100. Look at the layout of KHWO. I worked there for a while and we would run the parallels all the time, and if the wind was reasonable, we would land people on the crossing runways with the anticipation of you clearing that intersection. Here you come with SDF on the brain, you take the turn onto the crossing active runway right after I've cleared a guy to roll. Seem like a bad situation? You do it all the time at your airport and then you come to my airport and do it out of habit and kill somebody. Bad pilot! BAD!

I will get up on my soapbox on this one. DO NOT EVER TURN ONTO A RUNWAY WHEN EXITING YOUR RUNWAY UNLESS SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED OR APPROVED BY ATC. "When able, turn left, contact ground .8. Runway 18L available for your taxiing, blah blah blah." This is a huge accident waiting to happen. I don't care if you do it and ATC doesn't say anything. They are wrong as well.

I don't want this to sound like I am jumping into your backside specifically. I know it happens and ATC lets it slide. We all need to work harder to do the right thing according to the regs sometimes, and this is just one of those issues where just a little effort on everyone's part will save someone's life one day. How many accidents are the result of minor deviations from accepted practices that snowball into something horrible?

Thus endeth the sermon. </rant>
 
You can jump on my backside all you want. I learned something from this thread.

If it's that big a deal, I'm not sure how I somehow got this far in my aviation career without it being impressed upon me as being as important as you think it is. I was an ATA at LA Tracon at one time and on my pilot groups ATC liason committe, too.

I know what anticipated seperation is, but it seems a word to the landing aircraft to hold short of your intersection would make more sense. If I can make it to a safe speed to turn off onto a runway I can hold short of it, too. No big deal. Or tell the lander on final to expidite across your intersection and a specific turnoff to take.

It's one of those things where you're right that the pilot shouldn't have done it but a simple word to the wise would have kept everyone in the loop.

A good example is when I'm told to "taxi to a runway", that's a clearance to cross any "non-active" runway on my way. So, how do I know a runways active or not? Does it have to be on the ATIS? My understanding is that the local controller can make a runway active anytime it suits him. How's the pilot supposed to know?

I've got yelled at maybe ten times for bothing ground with a clairification on a runway crossing and never yelled at for what you're yelling at me for. Guess it's not a perfect system, eh?
 
daveatc said:
That is just WRONG. It's wrong on the part of ATC to allow you to do that. 100% wrong. Can I beat this drum any louder? ATC was wrong to not say something to you. 'Right turn when able' does not supercede the AIM instruction telling you 'next available taxiway.' ATC fully contributed to you developing a bad and unsafe habit.

Okay, you do it at SDF and maybe those crossing runways are inactive and no big deal 99 times out of 100. Look at the layout of KHWO. I worked there for a while and we would run the parallels all the time, and if the wind was reasonable, we would land people on the crossing runways with the anticipation of you clearing that intersection. Here you come with SDF on the brain, you take the turn onto the crossing active runway right after I've cleared a guy to roll. Seem like a bad situation? You do it all the time at your airport and then you come to my airport and do it out of habit and kill somebody. Bad pilot! BAD!

I will get up on my soapbox on this one. DO NOT EVER TURN ONTO A RUNWAY WHEN EXITING YOUR RUNWAY UNLESS SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED OR APPROVED BY ATC. "When able, turn left, contact ground .8. Runway 18L available for your taxiing, blah blah blah." This is a huge accident waiting to happen. I don't care if you do it and ATC doesn't say anything. They are wrong as well.

I don't want this to sound like I am jumping into your backside specifically. I know it happens and ATC lets it slide. We all need to work harder to do the right thing according to the regs sometimes, and this is just one of those issues where just a little effort on everyone's part will save someone's life one day. How many accidents are the result of minor deviations from accepted practices that snowball into something horrible?

Thus endeth the sermon. </rant>
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Thanks for that. I too made this mistake today for the first time, I was landing at KSMX on 30 and got off at 20. When I turned and realized what I had done, I was cursing myself inside. It sets a bad example for the other guy/gal as well as poses a risk to safety.
 
DE727UPS said:
A good example is when I'm told to "taxi to a runway", that's a clearance to cross any "non-active" runway on my way. So, how do I know a runways active or not? Does it have to be on the ATIS? My understanding is that the local controller can make a runway active anytime it suits him. How's the pilot supposed to know?

?
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I don't think "active" or "non-active" has anything to do with the clearance. The "taxi to" clearance allows you to cross any runway the taxi route intersects enroute to your assigned runway.

As far as the "after landing" procedure...the AIM states that you must receive an "authorization" from ATC before exiting onto another runway. Probably good form here, would be to have the controller specifically state the runway to exit onto. In absence of that specification... I think it would be questionable to exit onto the runway. Albeit, very confusing verbage when stated, "turn right next exit...blah, blah, blah"...if the next exit is a runway.
 
I think it all depends on the airport you're at. I once asked a tower controller at my local airport the same thing, and he said that if they tell a pilot to "turn left when able" then that would include a runway.
 
B767Driver said:
I don't think "active" or "non-active" has anything to do with the clearance. The "taxi to" clearance allows you to cross any runway the taxi route intersects enroute to your assigned runway.
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I disagree. If you combine your statement and UPS's statement I would agree.
My understanding is a "taxi to" clearance authorizes you to cross any runway EXCEPT the runway mentioned in the clearance. It's in the AIM somewhere, maybe someone can find it and point it out.

Maybe you meant this (inferred by saying "enroute to your assigned runway) but I just wanted to clarify for the benefit of others.

A good example is CHS (diagram below). Starting out at the terminal (A) taxing to runway 15 (B), ground typically says "taxi to runway 15". That's it. There is one controller who reiterates "taxi to runway 15, hold short of runway 15" but just one. I've put arrows where you would cross 15/33, it would be the pilots' job to hold short of that runway regardless if a hold short is issued or not.
 
wheelsup said:
I disagree. If you combine your statement and UPS's statement I would agree.
My understanding is a "taxi to" clearance authorizes you to cross any runway EXCEPT the runway mentioned in the clearance. It's in the AIM somewhere, maybe someone can find it and point it out.

Maybe you meant this (inferred by saying "enroute to your assigned runway) but I just wanted to clarify for the benefit of others.

A good example is CHS (diagram below). Starting out at the terminal (A) taxing to runway 15 (B), ground typically says "taxi to runway 15". That's it. There is one controller who reiterates "taxi to runway 15, hold short of runway 15" but just one. I've put arrows where you would cross 15/33, it would be the pilots' job to hold short of that runway regardless if a hold short is issued or not.
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Your clarification is my intention. Still...If I'm cleared to taxi to a runway...I'm cleared to cross everything enroute to that runway...unless restrictions are given by ATC. Active/non-active are not terms used in this matter.
 
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