Excellent news concerning Drones

Actually, it's not really - you're saying that operating an aircraft for hire is the same as getting reimbursed for being DD or lending money to your friends, this is a misrepresentation of the situation, and also a logical fallacy. It's called a straw man argument.

He's saying that the definition of "aircraft for hire" is too broad, and if that broad of a definition were ever applied outside of aviation many things that we just do in normal life would become illegal. That's not a straw man. It's an analogy.
 
Actually, it's not really - you're saying that operating an aircraft for hire is the same as getting reimbursed for being DD or lending money to your friends, this is a misrepresentation of the situation, and also a logical fallacy. It's called a straw man argument.
Actually the FAA would view that as compensation. Hence why there are such restrictions on a private pilot and the sort of flying they can do.

In the past the FAA has even viewed mere flight time as the compensation.
 
Actually the FAA would view that as compensation. Hence why there are such restrictions on a private pilot and the sort of flying they can do.

In the past the FAA has even viewed mere flight time as the compensation.
Winner! I tend to not speak on things I don't have first hand knowledge of but I happen to know the FARs quite well. I'll spend the next plane ride researching the legalities of ass, gas, or grass.

I'm a hobbyist shooter with a bit of PPD training, I think I'll start a body guard service. After all, just because I'm not a WIPS guy doesn't mean I can't do it part time, right?

/strawman
 
If you're talking about flying that quad-copter "for hire" why in the blue falcon shouldn't you be required to take a commercial written and demonstrate mastery of the aircraft?

One set of rules for everyone, period.

For commercial operations, I can see a written test for say, less than 5kg all up weight. Within that test is a a broad knowledge of a new set of FAR's that are limiting for use of the device. Maybe a required ground school course. Maybe even a stiff initial licensing fee of a few grand to keep the wannabee's out.
But requiring pilot cert's , medical, checkrides, recurrent's as we know it in our full scale lives is a bit over the top for a sUAS. The FAA is swamped as it is with serious budget concerns. There is no way they can handle the onslaught of this industry. Quite frankly, knowing to keep it below 200kts below the class B is not needed for a 3 lb foam sUAS.

There are a bunch of other issues like legal frequencies for control and downlink also. As it is, most are using HAM frequencies which is a bozo no no for any type of commercial operation. Quality of equipment, redundancies, etc all come under scrutiny.

Bottom line, sUAS need a different subset of rules.

Some competent, knowledgeable, and ambitious individual should have a reasonable route of certification so that they can get a panoramic shot of a golf course club house from 300 feet. There is absolutely no reason that it should require over million bucks and years of hoop jumping in order to do that.
 
For commercial operations, I can see a written test for say, less than 5kg all up weight. Within that test is a a broad knowledge of a new set of FAR's that are limiting for use of the device. Maybe a required ground school course. Maybe even a stiff initial licensing fee of a few grand to keep the wannabee's out.
But requiring pilot cert's , medical, checkrides, recurrent's as we know it in our full scale lives is a bit over the top for a sUAS. The FAA is swamped as it is with serious budget concerns. There is no way they can handle the onslaught of this industry. Quite frankly, knowing to keep it below 200kts below the class B is not needed for a 3 lb foam sUAS.

There are a bunch of other issues like legal frequencies for control and downlink also. As it is, most are using HAM frequencies which is a bozo no no for any type of commercial operation. Quality of equipment, redundancies, etc all come under scrutiny.

Bottom line, sUAS need a different subset of rules.

Some competent, knowledgeable, and ambitious individual should have a reasonable route of certification so that they can get a panoramic shot of a golf course club house from 300 feet. There is absolutely no reason that it should require over million bucks and years of hoop jumping in order to do that.

Nope. Because it "flies" it's über special, and should be heavily regulated.

/sarcasm
 
If you're in the NAS, you should be a pilot. Just my two cents. Buuuut, I'm biased as all heck because I have my certs and I'm betting on the UAV industry to really open up in the next 5 years.
 
He's saying that the definition of "aircraft for hire" is too broad, and if that broad of a definition were ever applied outside of aviation many things that we just do in normal life would become illegal. That's not a straw man. It's an analogy.

Analogy implies a mapping of one topic onto another, that's sort of what he's doing, but it's a bad mapping, and he's only doing it so that he can shoot down the argument. First off, lending money to your friends is legal. There's nothing illegal about lending money to your friends without a lenders license unless everyone in America is your friend and you charge all of them interest. As for driving your friends around, I'm not even sure that's illegal in all states because taxi/cab/driving laws very wildly between cities and states. And even if it could be said that driving your friends around on Saturday night is illegal, it's not a very good analogy or appropriate analogy because it's an apples and oranges comparison. For one, almost every adult is a licensed driver, driving is ubiquitous and we use it to travel pretty much exclusively so everyone knows the "rules of the road" (more or less) and roads don't typically involve being above peoples' houses and so on. The same cannot be said for aviation. Two, driving around your drunk friends helps prevent drunk driving, making it a net social good. Driving around a quad-copter without any sort of training or experience could cause some serious problems.

These reasons make it a fundamentally bad comparison with aviation - we have videos right now of people driving their FPV airplanes around through the clouds, this is evidence right there that people have no idea what the rules are. What the guy is say is in effect: "Because no one gets their taxi license before being the DD we shouldn't require people to have a commercial to operate a quad-copter." That whole argument is a straw man, it's fundamentally easier to knock down the idea of regulating drones when you can argue that no one gets a taxi license to carry their buddies around, that's a straw man argument.

Is it flying in the air? Is it being done for money. Ok, commercial pilots need to be in command of it - I don't care if they're physically operating the damn thing, or if they're simply responsible for it while it does something automated - but there must be some structure to prevent these things from flying around wildly. Now personally, I would support a lower bar to entry for UAS operations than a full "fixed wing commercial pilot's license," - as in, after your private and instrument rating (should you intend to operate any of these things in the clouds) you can get a UAS Category rating added on with minimal training and checking - but you need to have some regulatory structure. Eventually, after things have hashed out a bit better, and where UAS sit in the economy is better known, then I would even support a way to obtain UAS Private that would require some groundschool and some training with the vehicle you want to operate but no actual flight time in manned airplanes for the hobbyist crowd - but for now, I think a more prudent course of action would be to revise and reissue the AC that applies to hobbyists It's better to have a little structure right now, than have the FAA put the hammer down on them after someone gets killed and it gets blasted all over CNN for 3 days.

Transport Canada just released an AC specifying the rules for operating a commercial UAV in Class G only. Not only that but they specify that even people operating the things away from everyone and everything else in Class G airspace below 300' need training, need to notify TC in writing, need to conduct a site survey, and so on. Canada has a "metric tonne" of class G airspace, and a substantial amount of operations where survey in this manner would be useful, so I imagine this regulation may work for them, but I don't see that working as readily for us down here.
 
If you're in the NAS, you should be a pilot. Just my two cents. Buuuut, I'm biased as all heck because I have my certs and I'm betting on the UAV industry to really open up in the next 5 years.

I think that's a very "traditional" way to view the issue. These devices are anything but traditional. You don't need to be able to fly an airplane to fly a device like this. You just need understanding of airspace and understanding FARs. That can be done without being a "pilot."

Smart regulations are needed, and blanket rules are not smart by definition. I would support some sort of certification procedure for commercial applications flying over 400 AGL or for devices over 15-20 lbs.

The position that "pilots" should be flying these things seems mostly to be about self-interest and/or ego.
 
If you're in the NAS, you should be a pilot. Just my two cents. Buuuut, I'm biased as all heck because I have my certs and I'm betting on the UAV industry to really open up in the next 5 years.
Meh.
A legally flown rc aircraft, in sight of the operator is no different than flying a kite, and actually safer. How quickly can you reel in a kite if you saw some honyack flying low towards you?
 
I support the idea of operating in class G only without additional regulation. So if you're near an airport where controlled airspace goes to the surface you need additional qualifications. Why not create a commercial UAV license? You could teach someone about airspace with a few classes, and set them loose.

Otherwise class G goes to 700 or 1200 AGL in most of the US. That means most places could operate without regulation. Seems like a good sensible rule to me.
 
Personally, I think getting licensed to commercially fly a small (10 lbs or less) quadcopter style UAS should be a much simpler process than a traditional pilot certificate. If it's as complicated (and expensive) as commercial fixed wing or rotorcraft certificate we're going to see a large amount of people circumventing the licensure process.
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Clearly, I am a hazard to aviation safety. Someone call the FAA so they can promptly issue a fine.

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And those are the little ones. I was to lazy to head into the garage. Plus, it's cold outside right now. But I'm sure the FAA would be really pissed off if they knew I was such an irresponsible model airplane pilot, having more than one toy that's, you know, ssooOOOOooo dangerous!
 
But I'm sure the FAA would be really pissed off if they knew I was such an irresponsible model airplane pilot, having more than one toy that's, you know, ssooOOOOooo dangerous!

Apparently your hobby only becomes dangerous and thus subject to regulation and licensing requirements the moment you add a camera to one of those models and then use a resulting photo for commercial purposes.

All I'm seeing here is a bunch of defensive turf protection in a tough job market, but that's not enough to justify what's being advocated.
 
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If you get rid of another path for kids to enjoy aviation you've done a major diservice to your own industry. We are going to get to a point where no one wants to work on aircraft and when that happens we can sit in cockpits making motor noises like a three year old. Unless you're reckless, if that's the case god speed.
 
Clearly, I am a hazard to aviation safety. Someone call the FAA so they can promptly issue a fine.

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10689608_758794777502588_7405854493479468965_n.jpg


And those are the little ones. I was to lazy to head into the garage. Plus, it's cold outside right now. But I'm sure the FAA would be really pissed off if they knew I was such an irresponsible model airplane pilot, having more than one toy that's, you know, ssooOOOOooo dangerous!

I'm not against people having fun - I'm against people with no idea wtf they're doing punching holes through clouds for money.
 
It was never a problem in the past - that is true. That is quickly changing, however. It is now a danger to the airspace in the US. It is not the fault of the "old school" RC pilots who play by the rules, but that is who will get screwed in the end. It is a shame, but inevitable. The proliferation of the devices, along with social media advertising the ridiculous things that some people are doing with them, will be their demise.

There were many things that used to be legal, but are now not. This will likely be the case here as well. As the technology evolved to make it possible to put these devices in more peoples hands, the more of a chance of improper usage. That is what is occurring now.
 
There is no "demise" coming. The way I would like to see it happen is a few people get very publicly fined /jail time (if something really bad happens), and then you will see a drop in stupidity. I think right now there is a miss placed arrogance that has permeated somehow and some dummies doing stupid stuff. They have to get caught.
 
There will be at least 10,000 kids that get these things for Christmas. They will use them, and their parents will pay no attention to them, because they are "just toys". That will be a major issue for the US airspace. How many traditional RC's are flown on a given week in the US? It will go up 1000 fold in a very short time with the new/cheap ones that are coming out now.

@Itchy Do you think one UAV knocking an airplane down is the answer to solving this problem?
 
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