Itchy
Well-Known Member
Again. Line of sight flying has been going on for 6 decades. Why is it you feel someone flying a model would be dangerous for LOS flight? See (and hear in our case) and avoid is very simple.
Hell man, lets outlaw kites too!
Excellent news concerning Drones
- Thread starter Seggy
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Hell man, lets outlaw kites too!
esa17
Well-Known Member
What you call LOS and I call LOS are two different animals. In 5 years of flying UAS I only have 3 (yes as in a hat trick) flights where I could physically see the aircraft.
Flying a quadcopter which you always have eyes on will most likely never be a danger. But, it could be so we need to be prepared for as many eventualities as practical.
Flying a quadcopter which you always have eyes on will most likely never be a danger. But, it could be so we need to be prepared for as many eventualities as practical.
tbstanto
Well-Known Member
@esa17 You have a certificate. You have experience. You have "skin in the game". That is the difference. You can be considered a professional. You understand that transponders are available and a possibility. Most people do not.
Doing it recklessly and for fun is like shooting a run into the air and saying that you have been doing it for years but haven't hit a single airplane yet. While that may be true, one will get hit. Is it worth it? Is this ridiculous hobby worth the lives of the people on board that will die? Do you want some jack-wagon that is flying one over the FAF of an approach at a class B airport to be doing so when your family is landing? Do you trust that 14 year old kid to do the right thing and not fly it to 3000'?
If you are a professional, get a license and do it. That is fine. Go to an approved area that is registered with the FAA and warns real pilots of the danger.
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esa17
Well-Known Member
I understand that but that's part of the standardization issue. In the "industry" LOS refers to the communication structure of the entire system. I'd prefer to use the nomenclature of beyond visual range (BVR) for operations where an observer is unable to keep eyes on.
I'd like us to be on the same page no matter what we fly.
I'd like us to be on the same page no matter what we fly.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
Slow do you see and avoid without being able to have a panoramic view? "Big sky little bullet" doesn't cut it. TAS/TCAS only helps if both aircraft have at least an operating transponder and at least one has the traffic system. I can bet a J3 will be at the same altitudes and will have neither. Also, the responsibility cannot rest solely with the J3 just because there's a person in the aircraft. Heck, if the UAS is beyond the visual range of the operator, does it only make left turns?
Itchy
Well-Known Member
In the hobby, it always was LOS or BLOS.
I prefer LOS.
The serious problem lies with many hobbyist that either through ignorance or arrogance fly WAY beyond LOS. Over big cities with many airports at many thousands of feet.
tbstanto, there is no license (maybe you are looking for certificate?
) for the hobby. And because of the idiots, the hobby is working on getting wholesale wiped out. There are any number of youtube gopro cowboys doing insane stuff.
Itchy
Well-Known Member
So, you feel I don't have (with many years and many 1000's of dollars- skin in the game? Interesting.
The cat is out of the bag, these things are everywhere. And that 14 year old (and many others) are the problem.
esa17
Well-Known Member
The same way I do when I'm shooting an ILS in the lear. I trust ATC to keep me away from other aircraft I can't see.
One operation required us to file an IFR flight plan as a 182 for that very reason. There is no reason whatsoever a transponder equipped aircraft of any sort can't request blocks of airspace.
If a VFR aircraft is operating in your AO then that's what observers are for. If an observer is impractical the flight doesn't happen.
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esa17
Well-Known Member
For every operator like you there are a dozen dirtbags trying to get hits on YouTube.
You might be the safest operator ever but if you can't prove it on paper then you can't prove it at all.
tbstanto
Well-Known Member
(So I understand, your 1000's of hours - are they in airplanes or RC's? I may have misunderstood you.)
If you crash one into an airplane, you are out a few thousand dollars. If @esa17 crashes one, he loses his job/certificates. Oh, and those certificates cost MUCH more than $30k. I have spent well over $70k to get my certs, and it is how I feed my family.
Since you are part of the hobby that is letting these kids fly these things recklessly, I would think that you and your mates would be interested in trying to help stop them, instead of defending the hobby on here. All it is going to take is one high profile accident, and all of you are going to need something else to do on a Saturday afternoon. I would think the legitimate hobbyists would be asking the FAA for some sort of a certification and training/restrictions on other people using them without due regard for safety.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty biased about the issue. I had a near mid air with one climbing out of PSP around 9,000' in the brasilia a while back. It wasn't on radar, or TCAS, or talking to approach etc. They shouldn't be flying in the same airspace as aircraft unless they have the same set of rules.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
Chino may be the only airport in the US with this type of Drone Control.
I had lunch at Flows cafe last week, I'll be sure to watch out for it when I head over next time.
Itchy
Well-Known Member
I have (I lost count actually) somewhere above 10K hours flying professionally.
I don't "let" anyone do anything in the hobby. Just like crappy drivers on the highway, there is not anything I can do about them.
I would be fine with having some sort of certification, but that will never happen. The FAA is swamped as it is. They are getting funding cuts, and this hobby is HUGE.
And your right, if someone hits an airplane, it will get real messy real quick. I think however that in general, most of the real dedicated hobbyists are safety conscious. There are many that have not a single clue however, and some so arrogant that they believe they have a right to be at 4000ft over downtown Chicago or Miami or New York or L.A. Sucks, but true.
There is an organization called AMA, that has been around for a long time. They promulgate a safety code that I adhere to. Many do not belong or follow those guidelines. Our flying field is an AMA chartered club.
I'll pursue the hobby as long as I can. It can be done safely, and out of anyone's public eye or concern. Like the video I posted above.
Here would be a good example of the anus parade:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=FPV+altitude+record,
No. Thinking you need real world experience to fly Model aircraft is idiotic. But hey, let's all tell little 8 year old Johnny, and his parents, down st the model airport that he had to go spend thousands of dollars to fly the task thing first, then come back do we can talk.
tbstanto
Well-Known Member
I think the point is that 8 year old Johnny has absolutely no business flying a model aircraft in airspace that is shared with real airplanes.
None of this works if local law enforcement isn't involved, and that'll require either involvement between FAA and thousands of local municipalities so they can write new municipal laws, or them becoming designees of the Administrator.
Most of the drone problems will result in a call to 911. What comes after that?
Most of the drone problems will result in a call to 911. What comes after that?
Really? Ever been to Van Nuys? Because there is s model airport right of the departure end of the 16's. Guess where there has NEVER been a collision between a model airplane and a full scale. Guess where events are held for profit. Guess sheer I was 8 years old, flying model airplanes. The problem isn't with 99% of people. The problem is with 1% of them. Make regulations that will punish the 1%, not the 99%. Requiring people to fly a real aircraft, just to take pictures with a damn done is typical of what's wrong with this country right now. More regulations, that cost more money to enforce than there is to go around, on over see than there is time for.
If you want to make it so there is a license to fly one, have a proctored, written test if model airplanes and "drones" scare you so much. But as far as I can find, there has NEVER been an accident with a commercial aircraft and a model.
tbstanto
Well-Known Member
Do you let your kid drive a go-cart on the freeway? It is the same thing. Just because there hasn't been a problem in the past doesn't mean that there won't be one in the future. There are easily 10x more of them flying around the air.
There are lots of things that were considered perfectly safe at one time that are not anymore.
One of the dumbest arguments is that you have been doing it for years and it has never caused a problem before, so it must be safe. I do agree in the past that a very large percentage (99% as you say) were "safe". Now, however, I would say that 99% of the people using them are doing so in their back yard with no supervision and no training. They buy some quadcopter type thing from Amazon, take it out of the box, and fly it up as high as it will go. That is the new 99%, and the "safe" operators are the 1%.
There are lots of things that were considered perfectly safe at one time that are not anymore.
One of the dumbest arguments is that you have been doing it for years and it has never caused a problem before, so it must be safe. I do agree in the past that a very large percentage (99% as you say) were "safe". Now, however, I would say that 99% of the people using them are doing so in their back yard with no supervision and no training. They buy some quadcopter type thing from Amazon, take it out of the box, and fly it up as high as it will go. That is the new 99%, and the "safe" operators are the 1%.