Ethical Discussion for Friday

Vyse

Vyse

BirchJet CA
Let's say your have a student, who is undergoing training with you towards a rating or certificate. In the course of that training, he knowingly exercises the privileges of that rating/certificate, even though he does not have it yet.

So for example, a private student taking passengers on a solo flight, or an instrument student filing an IFR flight plan on his own, or a commercial student flying for hire.

1. What would you do? For purposes of this discussion, assume the school says it's up to you.
2. Can the FAA come after you, the instructor, for not reporting him?
3. Would you retain the student under any circumstances?
 
Vyse said:
Let's say your have a student, who is undergoing training with you towards a rating or certificate. In the course of that training, he knowingly exercises the privileges of that rating/certificate, even though he does not have it yet.

So for example, a private student taking passengers on a solo flight, or an instrument student filing an IFR flight plan on his own, or a commercial student flying for hire.

1. What would you do? For purposes of this discussion, assume the school says it's up to you.
2. Can the FAA come after you, the instructor, for not reporting him?
3. Would you retain the student under any circumstances?
Click to expand...

1. Drop the student. Spent far too much time getting questioned by the FAA about misdeeds of my students and if he's willfully disregarding the FARS, no thanks.

2. I don't know. However I would get some distance between myself and that student ASAP.

3. See #1
 
Drop them. If they break rules that blatantly and willingly you dont want your name associated with them. Not your job to be airport police, but if you think something is a reccuring safety issue I think you have a moral responsibility to do something.
 
Vyse said:
3. Would you retain the student under any circumstances?
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Depends if it was something egregious, or just a case of them not knowing any better. If it was something minor, and they have a good attitude, it is a good thing to talk about and teach from.

IFR student filing their own flight plan? They probably just didn't know any better - not every CFI out there is super strict on this, possibly because they don't know any better.
 
Drop them. I had one student way back when I first started and had less than 30 hrs dual given, came into my office on that Monday before our flight and tell me how "he was a bad boy" and that he flew his plane a short 7NM to an airport that he wasn't endorsed to do. He knew he wasn't allowed but he did anyway. At least he told me he did it, I don't think he expected me to care about it though. I did. We didn't fly that day and we haven't flown in since.
 
I concur with everyone else. Drop em like a rock! I had a student that "decided" to do touch and go's at an airport he was not endorsed for. Even after I explicitly told him not to. That was the end of that. If they are that willing to "casually" break the rules, I don't want anything to do with them, period.
 
rframe said:
Not your job to be airport police
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Ok so I see this phrase regularly throughout the pilot community, and I mean no attack on you personally for repeating it rframe. However, I must respectfully, willfully, and completely disagree with any person who makes this statement. Please, bare with me and let me offer this viewpoint in support of my belief.

The laws we follow and the persecution we face appear to amplify with each new day. I don't believe any pilot would deny or dispute this.

What concerns me here, instead, is the why. The answer I believe to be quite clear, when our actions kill people who the outside world considers to be innocent then we quickly become subjected to the 'politically correct' response. This response is always to apply more stringent bounds to our already practically hand-tied ways.

To take this back to the point, no, we may not be the police. However, because of what we do we are, in my opinion, honor bound to uphold a respect for our profession. In other words, we should use our best judgement to regulate on those who may cause us more harm because they are certainly not doing us any favors.

This is a ludicrous burden to place on often young and naive flight instructors. Unfortunately, it is their burden non the less. We are the first line of defense in protecting the community our predecessors worked so hard to build for us. A community where we are on one hand regulated and on the other set free expected to follow these rules on our word alone. I would like if we can keep it this way, but if a few bad apples... Well you all know the rest of that saying, let's not turn a blind eye though or we are every bit to blame as those who ruin it for us all.
 
Vyse said:
Let's say your have a student, who is undergoing training with you towards a rating or certificate. In the course of that training, he knowingly exercises the privileges of that rating/certificate, even though he does not have it yet.

So for example, a private student taking passengers on a solo flight, or an instrument student filing an IFR flight plan on his own, or a commercial student flying for hire.

1. What would you do? For purposes of this discussion, assume the school says it's up to you.
2. Can the FAA come after you, the instructor, for not reporting him?
3. Would you retain the student under any circumstances?
Click to expand...

I would verify that the student is actually doing said actions prior to anything. Technique only.
 
shdw said:
However, because of what we do we are, in my opinion, honor bound to uphold a respect for our profession. In other words, we should use our best judgement to regulate...
Click to expand...

I think you can affect a population much more by building relationships and creating a sphere of positive influence than you can by being the neighborhood's nosy old nanny. When real safety is an issue there's a responsibility to step in and/or escalate to the needed authority. Knowing the difference is a matter of common sense and judgement.
 
1. Try to figure out the student was willingly breaking the rules.

2. I wouldn't think they would be able to come after you. Especially if you found out after the fact, I figure if you knew the student was going to do it before it happened it would be somewhat your responsibility to not let it happen.

3. If I find out that the student was aware of the rule and just said "• it" I definitely would not want to work with that student anymore.
 
Let me postscript my note by saying that I got hassled by the Feds years after I was non current CFI and they were off flying jets for the airlines.

I've been to the "big brown desk" at two different airlines and the long rectangobal conference desk in Oklahoma City so my swashbuckling days of flying as if I'm part of the Berlin Airlift or the "get the freight to the jet" mentality are far, far behind me.
 
Depending on what he did, it sounds like he is failing at least 3/5 of the hazardous attitudes:
  • Antiauthority​
  • Invulnerability​
  • Macho. ​
​
 
Drop him/her. Forget their name and phone number. If they approach you on the ramp "Uh, I think you've mistaken me for someone else".

That said, we're not the AirCops. If the FAA comes asking, you "determined that the student had an attitude with which you did not wish to be associated" and leave it at that. Nobody likes a Jerk, but nobody likes a squirming Informer, either. Once they're gone, it's not your problem any more. MYOFB.
 
Next time they show up for a lesson have this drawn up on the whiteboard:

tumblr_lxb9godavZ1qe7mxjo1_250.jpg


Then show them the door.
 
Derg said:
Let me postscript my note by saying that I got hassled by the Feds years after I was non current CFI and they were off flying jets for the airlines.

I've been to the "big brown desk" at two different airlines and the long rectangobal conference desk in Oklahoma City so my swashbuckling days of flying as if I'm part of the Berlin Airlift or the "get the freight to the jet" mentality are far, far behind me.
Click to expand...


Screen Shot 2013-07-29 at 6.01.25 AM.png
 
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