Engine Out over water?

[Eagle]

when I was learning to fly, the instructor told me this:

At night in a single engine airplane, if you lose power, and can not maintain altitude, wait until you are about 100 or so feet AGL then turn your landing light on, if you like what you see, .. leave it on, if you don't like what you see, turn it off.

It is rare that I will fly single engine at night, I will almost never fly night IFR SE. Even with IMC days I need at least 500-800ft ceilings the entire route in a single.. otherwise I drive. I want to be sure when I drop out the bottom of the clouds, I have some chance at picking a landing spot.

 

[I_Money]

MikeD good point, night IMC over anything is probably not the best idea.

 

[E_Dawg]

MikeD... my point was that if I ever had to reunite with the ground in a controlled impact situation... My choices would be

1) smooth land (like the desert you mentioned)
2) smooth water
3) rough land
4) rough water

Land does not flip you the way water could; and once the plane is stopped you do not having to worry about other 'things'... such as finding 'up' underwater at night, drowning, and swimming a mile or two to shore in hypothermic inviting temperatures.

I think IMC can be done in a single with an acceptable level or risk even at night; as long as you have SOMEWHERE to go if things go to crap, and a decent celing to boot.

 

[Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]

I think IMC can be done in a single with an acceptable level or risk even at night; as long as you have SOMEWHERE to go if things go to crap, and a decent celing to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

for example?

truth is, at night you can not see ANYTHING on the gound other than lights...

under a full moon you can too when there are no clouds.... but that is VMC not IMC...

 

[E_Dawg]

'for example?'

An example of what? Somewhere to go? Freeways; beaches; wherever you can. I'm not talking about flying with 500' bases and doing approaches to minimums... Mechanical engine failures don't account for many IFR accidents. It's mainly pilot error.

I obviously can't speak from experience (not enough anyways)... however as I said 'I think IMC can be done in a single with an acceptable level of risk even at night'. Maybe I should add that I am assuming the pilot is up to snuff and the airplane is well maintained.

Notice I didn't say that I personally do it (yet)... just that it can be done with 'an acceptable level of risk'.

 

[Eagle]

I disagree.

I am, and always will be of the mindset that you must leave yourself an out. see my personal mins listed above.. Night IFR in ASEL leaves you very little choice, and no "out"

my point is night is night, and the best you can hope for is to aim for the area of lights. (with less than a few hundred, or a thousand feet of alt left. )


the up side is if you aim to the lights, you have a better chance of someone finding the wreckage. and then the rescue as well.

I would be willing to bet very few crashes in IMC at night had any survivors.

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
MikeD... my point was that if I ever had to reunite with the ground in a controlled impact situation... My choices would be

1) smooth land (like the desert you mentioned)
2) smooth water
3) rough land
4) rough water

Land does not flip you the way water could; and once the plane is stopped you do not having to worry about other 'things'... such as finding 'up' underwater at night, drowning, and swimming a mile or two to shore in hypothermic inviting temperatures.

I think IMC can be done in a single with an acceptable level or risk even at night; as long as you have SOMEWHERE to go if things go to crap, and a decent celing to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understood your point, and see where you're coming from. This subject is, as it has headed to, one of each pilot's amount of personal risk he or she is willing to take. And in that, no one is really right or wrong. The items you mentioned with water being risky, I could probably come back with things you could impact on the smooth land that would be just as dangerous, but all in all it just depends. Each situation is going to have it's own set of variables that could make any situation more difficult than the others. As for risk, day/night VMC/IMC in an ASEL is all the same to me. If I have to go somewhere, I'd try to wait for VMC, but if the WX is IMC (not TSTMS/icing forecast/actual or anything like that), I'd have no problem launching IMC, all the while knowing that I very well may (or may not) be playing the "Vegas craps tables" while doing it.

To me, it all just depends. There's times that in a PA-44, if you lost your engine, the remaining engine would only take you to the crash site located a little farther from where the single-engine would've impacted.

 

[ananoman]

This brings up many good points. How many of us actually carry survival gear when we fly? When I go CC here in FL, I carry extra water, bug spray, a survival blanket, signal mirror, compass, water purification tablets, radio, etc. You can put a few things like this in your flight bag and it takes up very little space. If you are up north or out west, you may need another bag for extra clothes, etc. Here in FL, I may be eaten by bugs or alligators, but at least I won't freeze.

If you regularly fly over water in a single, you should have flotation vest in the aircraft. The pilot should probably have a 'constant wear' vest. It would be hard to fly and try to put on a vest at the same time. Vest are relatively cheap insurance. Life rafts are another matter. If I flew to the Bahamas regularly I would probably want a raft, but good ones are quite expensive. A Winslow can cost several thousand dollars. Be careful here, alot of the rafts, even name brands, suck. I have read test where they put people in a pool of cold water and threw in a raft. Alot of the time the people could not get the things inflated, could not climb into them, could not erect the roof, etc. Good rafts should be easy to inflate, have a good boarding ladder and not flip over when you climb in.

If you are interested in this type of stuff, check out www.equippedtosurvive.com

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
This brings up many good points. How many of us actually carry survival gear when we fly? When I go CC here in FL, I carry extra water, bug spray, a survival blanket, signal mirror, compass, water purification tablets, radio, etc. You can put a few things like this in your flight bag and it takes up very little space. If you are up north or out west, you may need another bag for extra clothes, etc. Here in FL, I may be eaten by bugs or alligators, but at least I won't freeze.

If you regularly fly over water in a single, you should have flotation vest in the aircraft. The pilot should probably have a 'constant wear' vest. It would be hard to fly and try to put on a vest at the same time. Vest are relatively cheap insurance. Life rafts are another matter. If I flew to the Bahamas regularly I would probably want a raft, but good ones are quite expensive. A Winslow can cost several thousand dollars. Be careful here, alot of the rafts, even name brands, suck. I have read test where they put people in a pool of cold water and threw in a raft. Alot of the time the people could not get the things inflated, could not climb into them, could not erect the roof, etc. Good rafts should be easy to inflate, have a good boarding ladder and not flip over when you climb in.

If you are interested in this type of stuff, check out www.equippedtosurvive.com

[/ QUOTE ]

Carry what's in the survival vest, plus what's in the seat kit, plus sidearm, in addition to a PFD and raft (even in AZ)

 

[ananoman]

I don't think I will try the sidearm part until after I give my 2 weeks notice.

 

[ananoman]

Springfield Armory sells a modern version of the old M6 Air Force survival rifle that is a .22/.410 over-under. It folds in half and carries a few extra rounds in the stock. It would not make a great general purpose gun, but I always thought they were neat. Might be a good excuse to buy another toy.

Check it out at www.springfieldarmory.com
It is under "rifles" and is called the M6 Scout

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Springfield Armory sells a modern version of the old M6 Air Force survival rifle that is a .22/.410 over-under. It folds in half and carries a few extra rounds in the stock. It would not make a great general purpose gun, but I always thought they were neat. Might be a good excuse to buy another toy.

Check it out at www.springfieldarmory.com
It is under "rifles" and is called the M6 Scout

[/ QUOTE ]

We get the standard M9 Beretta 9mm. Personally prefer the DE .357. Or can be like Navy pilots that seemingly carry what they want. One F-14 crew I worked with, the pilot had the issue Glock 19, while the RIO had a nickled Colt Python .41 or .44 revolver.

 

[davetheflyer]

The AIM has a really good section on how to land in water. In addition to that, some other advice that I've heard over the years:

-Plan on having the airplane sink at least to the wings. If the aircraft has wing tanks, chances are that it will float if the tanks are mostly empty (full of air).

-Keep the gear up, if in a retrac. If gear is extended (or down and welded), then you have a strong chance of having the aircraft pitch nose down as the gear strikes the water.

-Eliminate as much clutter as possible before landing. Stow any items that might cause you to become entangled, such as headset cords.

-Since there probably won't be time to put on a life vest in a emergency, especially if you are single pilot, wear your emergency equipment any time you will be flying extended over-water legs.

A couple of years ago, I saw a boating catalog that featured a light jacket that contained an emergency flotation device which could be triggered by a CO2 cartridge. This was not USCG approved, but since it would be comfortable to wear on most flights, it might be more useful than an approved life vest in the baggage compartment.

Additionally, Flight Safety Savannah also has a ditching course.

With regard to the question of the safety of SE flying, the same arguements could be applied to most light twins. In training, the airplanes are normally flown with only two occupants. In real life, with a fully loaded airplane, chances are that your Seminole or Apache will only be able to make a prolonged descent on one engine. Therefore, don't forget emergency planning in these airplanes just because they burn twice the gas.

 

[Eagle]

this is what we wear when flying over water. they do not get in the way, and the inflate handle tucks away as not to snag anything.

www.sospenders.com