Engine failure inside/outside FAF

STS-41B

Well-Known Member
Saw this on then other forum and made me want clarification as well..

My understanding: *outside* the final approach fix... if you were to lose an engine, you go missed and work the checklists and come around again.
*inside* the final approach fix, you continue and land.
yes/no? (This is part 121, if that makes a difference)
 

///AMG

Well-Known Member
I'd imagine 121 makes a lot of difference, since this could easily fall into technique city otherwise.......and it could also be very specific to the aircraft, how much stuff you need to do in the event of an engine failure before the wheels touch down (systems and gross weight wise), and could also be scenario specific. NOT 121 and not specifically answering your question, but using my own experience flying mil fighters, I've never heard of such a distinction being made in my community. Totally scenario specific. If the right engine fails (vs the left) in my current aircraft, you might have a lot more to think about and do before committing to landing. We do have very specific and standardized criteria for things like executing a high speed rejected takeoff (we call it an abort), but once you are airborne safely flying and the jet isn't coming apart or imminently crashing, you generally have some time to run through the procedures......it isn't like discontinuing an approach inside the FAF, or even at DH is really that big of a deal or anything we don't regularly train to single engine. Back to scenario/aircraft specific though, there is a lot to be said about landing if it is safe and prudent to do so and making an airborne emergency a ground one. Fully talking out of my lane WRT 121 ops, but maybe useful discussion fodder for the crowd.
 
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pwttogfk

Well-Known Member
Saw this on then other forum and made me want clarification as well..

My understanding: *outside* the final approach fix... if you were to lose an engine, you go missed and work the checklists and come around again.
*inside* the final approach fix, you continue and land.
yes/no? (This is part 121, if that makes a difference)
Also not 121 and haven’t stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in a while, but the “jet” I fly (CJ3) has a checklist specifically for “engine failure on final approach.” And it basically says just that...continue and land.
 

roundout

Bus Driver
My 121 place in an A320, you would have the PM run ECAM actions, and land. It would be indefensible to go missed on a single engine to run checklists when you could have simply landed. The only thing on the checklist is to consider a reduced flap setting, anyway.
 
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TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
I am somewhat positive every turbine powered airplane I’ve flown has had an “engine failure in landing configuration” checklist

For the most part the pre landing checklist will generally arm any redundancy systems required in an engine failure- if there are any. The only thing you would gain by doing the checklist is potentially securing the already off engine, reading more paper and burning some fuel.

In my current airplane the engine failure in landing configuration can pretty much be summed up by “lose and engine, lose a flap setting”


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Finny

Well-Known Member
What does your QRH say? FOM? Follow those and don’t try to make your own policies, that’s a bad road to go down.
 

Space Monkey

Well-Known Member
Saw this on then other forum and made me want clarification as well..

My understanding: *outside* the final approach fix... if you were to lose an engine, you go missed and work the checklists and come around again.
*inside* the final approach fix, you continue and land.
yes/no? (This is part 121, if that makes a difference)
Which one causes you to die or causes the Pax to notice that something is terribly, terribly wrong and start posting shirt to YouTube?

Yeah! Do the other one.
 
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///AMG

Well-Known Member
I am somewhat positive every turbine powered airplane I’ve flown has had an “engine failure in landing configuration” checklist
.....

In my current airplane the engine failure in landing configuration can pretty much be summed up by “lose and engine, lose a flap setting”


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Same and same for mine. For us it is a memory item.....it will settle and likely crash if already low and heavy GW/high DA and you don't.
 

Autothrust Blue

Very querulous
My 121 place in an A320, you would have the PM run ECAM actions, and land. It would be indefensible to go missed on a single engine to run checklists when you could have simply landed. The only thing on the checklist is to consider a reduced flap setting, anyway.
And even so, we’re told that the best go around performance in the base 320 is in CONF 3 not CONF 2 due to an aerodynamic quirk anyway. (319, 321 don’t suffer from that, so landing flaps 3/go around flaps 2 makes sense there.)

I would add that there are conceivable situations in which the approach should be discontinued for an engine failure other than on a beautiful day, especially if the airplane in question mandates a reduction in landing flap setting or if the weather is crud. But generally on the Airbus it’s an “oh no...anyway,” sort of event.

Note that I specifically used the word “discontinued” not go around/missed approach; Airbus draws a distinction, based upon how high you are.
 

Cessnaflyer

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Also not 121 and haven’t stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in a while, but the “jet” I fly (CJ3) has a checklist specifically for “engine failure on final approach.” And it basically says just that...continue and land.
Just make sure you get flaps to the Takeoff/Landing position.
 

pwttogfk

Well-Known Member
Just make sure you get flaps to the Takeoff/Landing position.
The lack of ability to...fly...would probably prompt remembering that. The plane is even more impressive than the sim with the difference in drag between TO/APR and LDG flaps. Also, having done SE drag demos in Citations probably can explain some of my gray hairs.
 

awair

New Member
So many different rules...
For Boeing it is definitely a judgment call:

In the simulator, 2 different trainers will give you 3 different answers, all backed up by “Company policy”.***

In real life, if you land safely, no drama. At the subsequent enquiry, “did you consider...?”can easily be countered with “under the circumstances, this was the most prudent course of action”.

Of course in the sim, there are traps like:
Missed approach gradient
Landing distance available
Contamination etc

If you are not sure about any of these, then this is something to reflect on for next time.

*** Just for example, the book says:
“All checklists must be completed before...”
vs
“Land at the nearest suitable airport. Isn’t that straight in front of you, not the same place after 30 miles more?“

Do you know your aircraft well enough to judge “suitable” for the current conditions?
 

Box hauler

Well-Known Member
In the Bus I’m yelling out “ ECAM actions “ and landing normally. No reason to turn a stable situation into a possibly unstable one.
 

TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
In the Bus I’m yelling out “ ECAM actions “ and landing normally. No reason to turn a stable situation into a possibly unstable one.
In the club Cherokee, I’m busting out the jerry Wagner, yelling gumps, and landing somewhere... cause that plane already an unstable relationship with flying.


Seriously though, on the glide slope, low power, mostly configured - the failure won’t do much as long as you don’t get behind the curve. As a professional pilot, a little bit of asymmetric thrust ought to be something that you can deal with safely. Granted on a 200/1800rvr approach being hand flown- it’s going to suck, but so is everything else at that point.


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BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
In the Bus, in general, you can't run any ECAM below 1000 feet (except a engine failure during takeoff can be started at 400 feet). Our "rule", and it's not in the FCOM, is to break off an approach if you don't have things finished up by 1000 feet. If something happens below 1000 feet on landing, unless if effects the landing (like gear unsafe), you just continue.

That said if I am aligned on final and have an engine flame out, I think I'd probably not bother with the ecam unless there was something burning and just land as long as the plane felt ok to fly.
 
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