Endorsements

9

92128

New Member
I have a question.

If a Private Pilot with a rotorcraft helicoptor rating is working on adding an ASEL rating to his certificate, what endorsements would he need in order to fly solo? Would he ONLY need the endorsement required by part 61.31 (d)(2) [#62 in AC 61-65E]. OR, would the pilot also need the endorsements that Student Pilots are required to have for solo flight?
 
This is from the FAQ

QUESTION: I am currently giving flight training for a glider rating to a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate - airplane (ASEL/AMEL/IA). My questions concerns § 61.31(d)(3) which seems to say that more than one endorsement is needed, that is “the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.” Advisory Circular 61-65D, Appendix 1, lists two pre‑solo endorsements (for day flights): Endorsement #1 for pre-solo aeronautical knowledge [§ 61.87(b)] and Endorsement #2 for pre-solo flight training [§ 61.87(c)]. Appendix 1 of Advisory Circular 61-65D also shows Endorsement #35, an endorsement to act as PIC of an aircraft in solo operations when the pilot who does not hold an appropriate category [§ 61.31(d)(3), for glider category in this case]. Does the endorsement shown in Endorsement #35 suffice for this person to solo a glider, or are the endorsements shown in Endorsement #1 and Endorsement #2 also required?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.31(d)(3), § 61.87(b) and (c) and Endorsement #35 in Appendix 1 of Advisory Circular 61‑65D; The person you are giving flight training to in a glider holds a commercial pilot certificate. He is not a student pilot. The person only needs to have received Endorsement #35 in order to serve as a PIC in a glider. The person does not need Endorsement #1 or Endorsement #2, nor are the endorsements appropriate for a certificated and rated pilot. Endorsement #1 and Endorsement #2 are predicated on the basis of § 61.87(b) and (c) which applies to student pilots only.
{Q&A-493}


QUESTION: If I give this commercial pilot – airplane an endorsements for solo privilege in gliders, is Endorsement #4 (solo flight for each additional 90-day period) shown in Appendix 1 of Advisory Circular 61‑65D required if this pilot wishes to solo the glider more than 90 days after the initial privilege endorsement?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.31(d)(3), § 61.87(l)(2) and Endorsement #35 in Appendix 1 of Advisory Circular 61‑65D; The person is not a student pilot and only needs to have received Endorsement #35 in order to solo a glider. The person does not need Endorsement #4 as this 90-day limitation [§ 6187(l)(2)] only applies to student pilots. The person may continue to perform solo flight operations on the basis of Endorsement #35. However, as a flight instructor, even though the rules do not specifically state any requirement for limiting your endorsement to 90 days, it would be legally prudent of you to place such a limitation if you have any doubts about this person's judgment or his propensity to enjoy suing you. However, the rules do not specifically require you to place such a limitation, because those of us who rewrote Part 61 did not think it was necessary to attempt to regulate good vs. irrational judgment.
{Q&A-493}
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Okay, so for part two of my question. If he only needs #62, what "training" must the pilot have received to be given this endorsement?

From the FAR:

"To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must--

Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor."

Is this to say that the pilot must receive ALL of the training required for Private Pilot Certification BEFORE he/she may fly solo? That doesn't seem right.
 
92128 said:
Okay, so for part two of my question. If he only needs #62, what "training" must the pilot have received to be given this endorsement?

From the FAR:

"To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must--

Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor."

Is this to say that the pilot must receive ALL of the training required for Private Pilot Certification BEFORE he/she may fly solo? That doesn't seem right.
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61.109 "..a person who applies for PP must log..bla,bla..and 10 hours solo.."

So, to the best of my ability to interpret these round-about regulations, where there is clearly no specific regulation to cover it, I say, at the time of solo, that student is operating as a student pilot. Not in the legal real first time student way, but as a student of this different category, so I make the personal decision to apply the 61.87 list of training requirements and endorse him/her the same way, but don't call him/her a student pilot.

When they say training required as appropriate, that would also mean to act as PIC with pax, then the appropriate continued training of 61.109 would be applicable.

That's my 2c.
 
I think you can try to read too much into it.

There are tasks (pre-solo and otherwise) that are specific to rotorcraft and others that overlap with those that were covered before. The CFI takes those, tosses them into a bowl adds a dash of instructor evaluation of the pilot's general competence, and make a decision about what satisfies himself that the pilot is ready to solo.
 
92128 said:
I agree. Just wish I had it in writing from the FARs. You can tell they were written by lawyers, not pilots.
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Yes, pilots would probably have tried to make everything as specific as possible making the FARs about 6 times as long as they are right now.
 
92128 said:
I have a question.

If a Private Pilot with a rotorcraft helicoptor rating is working on adding an ASEL rating to his certificate, what endorsements would he need in order to fly solo? Would he ONLY need the endorsement required by part 61.31 (d)(2) [#62 in AC 61-65E]. OR, would the pilot also need the endorsements that Student Pilots are required to have for solo flight?
Click to expand...

He'd need a really expensive insurance policy before anything else matters much.
 
I went through this very dilemma not to long ago. The CYA method covers both you and the applicant. Make them do all of the 61.87 stuff, and give a PIC endorsement. The local examiner that I talked to recommended it. I also picked out all the stuff in 61.93 that applies to "airplane" not "aircraft." We spent roughly 20 hrs covering stuff, and I quadruple dipped on some stuff. He did do his rotor craft cert. 141, so it made some of the stuff a little more difficult, but not impossible.

The quad dip was a night x-country of 150nm/3hrs/hood time/night landings IIRC. Get creative, and read the regs to make sure that your not standing there with your junk in your hand when they take their checkride.
 
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