Endeavor's next big announcement

Exactly. Delta made the decision to let the disaster go into Ch 11 because they didn't like what was happening. In the end they got what they wanted out of the deal.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
@jtrain609
@Screaming_Emu

Honest question, how is it that ExpressJet, SkyWest, and ASA are all owned by one holding company yet continue to operate as three separate airlines with three separate lists? That was another disaster 9E management walked right into by combining all three Colgan/Mesaba/Pinnacle waaay too early.
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Because the way our transition agreement was written says we have to have a single contract before the Expressjet and ASA lists are combined. As for the Skywest one...who knows. Some people think that its just because Skywest is non union and they want to keep it that way. But the reason their pay and benefits are anywhere near where they are is simply because of the THREAT of a union...not out of the kindness of Inc. As far as I'm concerned, their crying poor falls on deaf ears as long as they're operating more than one company. No matter how much they may save by keeping them non union, there's no way that its enough that it justifies running two sets of everything.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Honest question, how is it that ExpressJet, SkyWest, and ASA are all owned by one holding company yet continue to operate as three separate airlines with three separate lists? That was another disaster 9E management walked right into by combining all three Colgan/Mesaba/Pinnacle waaay too early.
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That couldn't be less true. Pinnacle failed by trying to run three separate companies for entirely too long and then all at once deciding to merge lists and let everyone move wherever they wanted all at once. Oh and lets no forget the abortion of moving the entire operation downtown. All Delta had to do was watch and then say no when asked to adjust the agreement. Try again.
 
Rocketman99 said:
That couldn't be less true. Pinnacle failed by trying to run three separate companies for entirely too long and then all at once deciding to merge lists and let everyone move wherever they wanted all at once. Oh and lets no forget the abortion of moving the entire operation downtown. All Delta had to do was watch and then say no when asked to adjust the agreement. Try again.
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Huh? Yes Colgan was run separate but once Mesaba was bought it was all fairly quick in terms of getting "one contract, one list!" After the buyout, the union teams quickly got working on those two goals. And no, I don't think it was 9E management that wanted everyone to bid across. It was dictated by the JCBA, the union wanted it (duh! 3 dozen XJ Saabs were about to be parked), and 9E management was not in a position to put a forced order that no pilot jump across their own airline. An operational fence would have been deemed illegal by the union. Heck, nearly of all 9E would have been perfectly happy with just their own airline and own one list. It was XJ that was losing three dozen Saabs (their entire fleet) and Colgan also losing some Saabs at the time. No one at 9E wanted to absorb those loses. If the situation was left alone and all three airlines separate, 9E corp would have been able to close Colgan and then integrate just Mesaba later when the time was right and things were more stable. It would have been a much easier transition.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Huh? Yes Colgan was run separate but once Mesaba was bought it was all fairly quick in terms of getting "one contract, one list!" After the buyout, the union teams quickly got working on those two goals. And no, I don't think it was 9E management that wanted everyone to bid across. It was dictated by the JCBA, the union wanted it (duh! 3 dozen XJ Saabs were about to be parked), and 9E management was not in a position to put a forced order that no pilot jump across their own airline. An operational fence would have been deemed illegal by the union. Heck, nearly of all 9E would have been perfectly happy with just their own airline and own one list. It was XJ that was losing three dozen Saabs (their entire fleet) and Colgan also losing some Saabs at the time. No one at 9E wanted to absorb those loses. If the situation was left alone and all three airlines separate, 9E corp would have been able to close Colgan and then integrate just Mesaba later when the time was right and things were more stable. It would have been a much easier transition.
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We could have had a common FOM before 1 list. Didn't the list come out in 2011 @Rocketman99 ?

If PNCL Corp had been smart, they would have had synergy before one list or JCBA. Instead, @Cherokee_Cruiser , we didn't get a common FOM until mid-2013 iirc. The botching was completely company caused. What can ALPA do, force them to get their crap together? My buddy who was DTW SF3, got to spend 2 weeks in indoc at year 4 pay guarantee. His training event caused 6 others. So, $38-ish, x 37.5, x 6, etc....

This could have worked if we had competent guys running the show. We finally do.

You were at PCL, you know as well as anyone that the company ran like the Benny Hill song. Waiting for numbers in the pad. The good old dump n run. Death by memo. No commonality between LCAs or the guys that conduct jeopardy check rides. NMFC. Etc.
 
cencal83406 said:
We could have had a common FOM before 1 list. Didn't the list come out in 2011 @Rocketman99 ?

If PNCL Corp had been smart, they would have had synergy before one list or JCBA. Instead, @Cherokee_Cruiser , we didn't get a common FOM until mid-2013 iirc. The botching was completely company caused. What can ALPA do, force them to get their crap together? My buddy who was DTW SF3, got to spend 2 weeks in indoc at year 4 pay guarantee. His training event caused 6 others. So, $38-ish, x 37.5, x 6, etc....

This could have worked if we had competent guys running the show. We finally do.

You were at PCL, you know as well as anyone that the company ran like the Benny Hill song. Waiting for numbers in the pad. The good old dump n run. Death by memo. No commonality between LCAs or the guys that conduct jeopardy check rides. NMFC. Etc.
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True, but the first step in stopping that problem was happening was a individual company fence. Allowing movement only within XJ, only within 9E, and only within 9L.
 
No someone is typically cluelessly arguing the problem was merging the people after the purchasing of the companies. Because obviously maintaining three entire sets of everything complete with the hundreds of middle managers is a better and cheaper option...
 
Rocketman99 said:
No someone is typically cluelessly arguing the problem was merging the people after the purchasing of the companies. Because obviously maintaining three entire sets of everything complete with the hundreds of middle managers is a better and cheaper option...
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Lol. Ah I see.

Well, thankfully CC is here to tell us how he would have done it if anyone realized what a latent talent he is as a CEO. We could do it CC's way or Phildo's way, either way Pinnacle was going T.U.
 
Make all the fun you want, but a separate operation (XJT/SKY/ASA) is the way to go until you can get operational fences taken care of, start merging certificates, etc. It's worked beautifully for SkyWest Corp so far.

Having ANYONE and EVERYONE jump across certificates and go through a FULL initial is absolutely ludicrous. Remember, the very first alignment after the one list (alignment out ~ third quarter 2011) had 38% of the ENTIRE pilot group jumping to a different position!!!! It was the primary reason training costs just spiraled out of control. Having 9L pilots staying home at full pay because they had been awarded a RJ spot but nothing available in training was also ludicrous.

Yes, Phildo screwed up 9E. That entire management team did. But them forcing an operational fence to prevent precisely what happened would have saved 9E lots of money, time, and headaches.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Lol. Ah I see.

Well, thankfully CC is here to tell us how he would have done it if anyone realized what a latent talent he is as a CEO. We could do it CC's way or Phildo's way, either way Pinnacle was going T.U.
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He'll be flying my 330 for me next! :)
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Make all the fun you want, but a separate operation (XJT/SKY/ASA) is the way to go until you can get operational fences taken care of, start merging certificates, etc. It's worked beautifully for SkyWest Corp so far.

Having ANYONE and EVERYONE jump across certificates and go through a FULL initial is absolutely ludicrous. Remember, the very first alignment after the one list (alignment out ~ third quarter 2011) had 38% of the ENTIRE pilot group jumping to a different position!!!! It was the primary reason training costs just spiraled out of control. Having 9L pilots staying home at full pay because they had been awarded a RJ spot but nothing available in training was also ludicrous.

Yes, Phildo screwed up 9E. That entire management team did. But them forcing an operational fence to prevent precisely what happened would have saved 9E lots of money, time, and headaches.
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Holy crap the operational fence was the Phil and the FSDO, not ALPA. Phil wanted separate certs, and the FSDO says you have to do a full indoc. Is there an FAA forum we can direct CC to?

The union was told that there would be mulitple certificates from the beginning, that was all Phildo. If you don't sync up the books the FSDO won't let you jump certs without indoc. If Phildo knew what he wanted some restrictions during the negotiations, but he had a serious staffing problem at Pinnacle at the time, you can reference the Bloch award summary if you are confused on that.
 
The truth is, syncing up the books was a lot of work and a lot of reading and writing and Red Neck airlines was ill equip for any of that.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Holy crap the operational fence was the Phil and the FSDO, not ALPA. Phil wanted separate certs, and the FSDO says you have to do a full indoc. Is there an FAA forum we can direct CC to?

The union was told that there would be mulitple certificates from the beginning, that was all Phildo. If you don't sync up the books the FSDO won't let you jump certs, I don't know what to tell ya. If Phildo knew what he wanted some restrictions during the negotiations, but he had a serious staffing problem at Pinnacle at the time, you can reference the Bloch award summary if you are confused on that.
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Exactly. Which is why management should have carried out the plan as three separate airlines.
 
I know, we're in agreement. That's why Phildo, Shockey, and the rest of the crooks were canned, er, I mean, found greener pastures with a full severance package. They drove it into the ground. But, I think it's the way NWA ran business. NW called the shots at Airlinks. Phildo was always told what to do by NWA. With Delta, not so much. Once 9E management actually had to do their job and manage, things quickly fell apart.
 
Derg said:
Don't get your hopes up. Who needs a bunch of leased airplanes?
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I know, it was j/k

If anyone acquires/merges with VX, it won't be for the leased planes. It would be for taking out one strong transcon competitor and perhaps the DAL flying if indeed VX does get the two gates which would basically give SWA and VX complete control of that airport's flying.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I know, we're in agreement. That's why Phildo, Shockey, and the rest of the crooks were canned, er, I mean, found greener pastures with a full severance package. They drove it into the ground. But, I think it's the way NWA ran business. NW called the shots at Airlinks. Phildo was always told what to do by NWA. With Delta, not so much. Once 9E management actually had to do their job and manage, things quickly fell apart.
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That's what Spanky was too.
 
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