EDCT time changes for the worse halfway into boarding

[OldTownPilot]

In this case I probably should have involved the staion ops more in the decision, they seemed to indicate that EDCT times for this particular outsation almost NEVER get moved up.

For XJT, it seemed (all but once that I recall) that the company had the correct time sooner than tower did. Of course the one time that they didn't it turned into a major cluster (cx'd flight after 6 hours of "update in 30")


I never really dealt with any other chronically delayed airports while ramping in BGR, but It seemed like that times rarely moved up going into EWR. We were close enough to BOS that we could have a plane loaded and ready, and make an arrival slot in 40 minutes that someone else lost. being close has its advantages and disadvantages.

 

[texas_pilot]

I have found that the EDCT information posted on the faa website (http://www.fly.faa.gov/edct/jsp/edctLookUp.jsp) for my flight number tends to be the most accurate period. It seems to get updated before ATC knows and ATC always seems to know before my disaptchers. As soon as I pull into the gate I whip that out on my phone and check for the outbound leg.

Even quicker, all I have to do is get in my airplane and request clearance to EWR, I already expect the screws to be clamping down on my fingernails.

 

[Cav]

For XJT, it seemed (all but once that I recall) that the company had the correct time sooner than tower did.

This is the key at least in my experience with EWR. Sure there are exceptions but I would guess 90% of the time the company computers will show the correct EDCT before ATC gets it.

I'm not going to question Alchemy's decision because 1) I wasn't there 2) I've done the exact same thing in the past that he did...however, my view has changed over the past few years from numerous experiences (all too many being based in EWR for 4+ years) and also the guidance the company recently gave us (I won't go into it here since I can't remember if it was confidential and I don't feel like looking it up right now!). Mostly because I've found that when I push and sit for lengthy periods of time I always feel like I'm asking for a problem (Comair news video remember that?)....APU busting, full lav, elderly diabetic passenger who runs out of food, the possibilities are endless. My general rule of thumb is to never board during a ground stop and start boarding 45 prior to an EDCT (which Alchemy appears to have tried to do the first time but the time changed). During the boarding process if I found out there was a 2 hour change to the EDCT I'd probably stop boarding.

When it gets really nasty is when you push for an EDCT time and it changes to a ground stop...and the update becomes and update.

 

[Cav]

Board them, push. Taxi the aircraft to a part of the airport where you can shut her down and let the folks up. I've played this game, with this airline, and this hub enough to know that EDCT times can get better or worse in the blink of an eye. The last thing I'd want to do is miss my slot to get into that crap hole of an airport, and I think the folks in the back would prefer to get there after sitting on an airplane for 2 hours as opposed to waiting in the terminal for 5. Anyway, it's not like people don't sit on RJ's for hours at a time; this same company operates RJ's from Toronto to Houston.

I get your point and I tend to agree with your basic point however in my experience when the times start to radically improve the delay program is generally canceled or at least drastically reduced. Maybe I've been lucky but every time the EDCT time that was 2+ hours magically cancels, clearance calls us (or ops on the land line) and says how much time do you need? We say X minutes and ATC makes it happen. I've never "missed" a shortened EDCT and had it cost me any length of time beyond the original 2+ hour time. Does it potentially cost us 15 minutes once we board, push, taxi, etc? Sure, however for every time one EDCT time is shortened I've had 10 lengthened so I'll continue to play the odds and side with passenger comfort.

 

[jtrain609]

You raise a good point, I've never actually missed one either, but it's always the threat it'll happen right? Or "this one guy I talked with in the crew room, his cousin, who flies for mainline, missed his EDCT time by 15 seconds and the next thing he knows, he's been re-routed to Newark VIA Tel Aviv. True story dude! What type? 737...hey they're ETOPS!"

But I'm still generally very interested in getting out the door as soon as ATC allows it. I HAVE been in situations where ATC has said, "Can you be off the ground in 5 minutes? If so we can get you outta here."

 

[kellwolf]

For me, it would depend on the airport and the WX. I've got zilch experience going into EWR, so I defer to the XJT guys here. If it's MEM and they give you an EDCT time, board and go. Odds are really good it's gonna be nixed by the time you get to the runway unless it's a WX issue. Those tend to hold up pretty well since MEM tends to go to hell in a handbasket during extreme WX events.

Oddly enough, there's actually GUIDANCE on this in our FOM. If it's gonna be less than 3 hours between push and wheels up, the CA and dispatcher have to coordinate a plan of attack and a hard time. If you hit that hard time, you're going back to the gate, period. I've played the "We're getting you out in the next 15 minute" game with ATC while holding short of the runway. After the fourth time of being told that and sitting out there for 2.5 hours, we went back to the gate. Sure enough, they didn't release MEM departures for another hour or more.

As for the not getting paid for blocking out for two hours. Rule #67 of ACARS ettiquette.....you always hit "taxi out and back" instead of "never left gate."

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Definately...When I was on the 170 we always made sure L1 was closed and dropped the Parking brake to get a block out time, even we are still at the gate.

I was in IAD one time on the Saab and we elected not to board as it was going to be over 2 hours...While sitting in the cockpit doing Jepp updates clearance calls and wants to know if we can be ready to push in 5.

I was so frustrated...We ended up have to wait the full time....But life is always easier when they are in the terminal versus the Saab in summer heat.

 

[n6149s]

ATC will get the information after the company does because the ATC FDIO system is greatly outdated. Beside weather, "ATC delays" are due to inadaquate staffing, inadequate automation, a lack of terminal space and a lack of runways. All this is added to the fact that at the busiest airports, the airlines will continuously schedule more operations than the current infastructure can safely and legally handle.:banghead:

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

You raise a good point, I've never actually missed one either, but it's always the threat it'll happen right? Or "this one guy I talked with in the crew room, his cousin, who flies for mainline, missed his EDCT time by 15 seconds and the next thing he knows, he's been re-routed to Newark VIA Tel Aviv. True story dude! What type? 737...hey they're ETOPS!"

But I'm still generally very interested in getting out the door as soon as ATC allows it. I HAVE been in situations where ATC has said, "Can you be off the ground in 5 minutes? If so we can get you outta here."

I have. We were shortened, then EWR went back into ground stop after some sort of NY center computer issue that had all the departure gates at EWR closed for hours. We ended up canceling that night after sitting in Pit for 10+ hours.

As long as nothing else comes up after you miss a time, you will normally be fine.. maybe another 10-15 minutes... but if anything else comes up, your toast. Usually I'll board, make an announcement to the pax that we are taking a shot at trying to get them out asap. If they get upset after an hour or to, then I have no problem taking them back to the gate. I also make sure that they know if they deplane, and we get the call to go, we are going.