Eclipse is dead

WacoFan

WacoFan

Bigly
Apparently the Eclipse VLJ is toast. http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/EclipseFinallyFailsFailsFinally_199848-1.html

Someone explain to me how Vern Rayburn can burn through a billion plus getting this airplane certified, etc. Leland Snow has certified MANY different versions of airplanes since the 60's and has never, to my knowledge, burned investors or customers and has never been insolvent. Add to that how much Honda, Piper, Cirrus or Embraer are spending to certify their jets - does anyone know how much that will be? Is Vern Rayburn this generations Jim Bede? Heaping amounts of vaporware with a side order of snake-oil anyone?

My take-away from this is that if someone comes from an unrelated industry, with no experience in the industry they are entering, and tells you how inefficient things are and how they can do it better and revolutionize the business...run away fast. My only hope is that Rayburn lost his net-worth.
 
*sits back in lawn chair and pops a beer* :bandit:

*sip*

Ah, tastes like victory. Now come the lawsuits.
 
WacoFan said:
Add to that how much Honda, Piper, Cirrus or Embraer are spending to certify their jets - does anyone know how much that will be? Is Vern Rayburn this generations Jim Bede? Heaping amounts of vaporware with a side order of snake-oil anyone?
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Cirrus and Piper are pipe dreams. Embraer is solid and Honda is solid. Been pretty unimpressed with Cessna's Mustang.

Eclipse was a bad product. Everyone knew it inside the certification industry, including me and I was only there for a few years. I hope Vern lost his ass and I hope some junior New Mexican congressperson makes their career out of bringing guys like Vern in for public testimony.
 
My only hope is that I can pick one of them up cheap ;)

Eclipse pioneered a new market for the jet... and it may have worked out had the Economy taken a dump. If other major manufacturers were willing to follow his lead and create similar aircraft, then there was something for it.


I wish today we saw those that were the likes of Howard Huges. So many times, you see a company sell itself to investors to cover expenses. When things start to hit snags, investors panic and force the company to attempt to cut costs, change designs etc... often spelling doom for the company.

Look at the Telsa roadster... so much promise, but i doubt we will really ever see them
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
and it may have worked out had the Economy taken a dump. If other major manufacturers were willing to follow his lead and create similar aircraft, then there was something for it.
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Well they also promised a level of safety to meet FAR standards and they didn't and won't. Which is why they got passed from FSDO to FSDO because billy gates has too many politicians (democrats and republicans) bought off and the place wasn't closed for criminal negligence.

You've got a wife and loved ones if I remember correctly. Don't buy one, don't fly one, don't stand outside a protected shelter when one flies around your house.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Cirrus and Piper are pipe dreams. Embraer is solid and Honda is solid. Been pretty unimpressed with Cessna's Mustang.

Eclipse was a bad product. Everyone knew it inside the certification industry, including me and I was only there for a few years. I hope Vern lost his ass and I hope some junior New Mexican congressperson makes their career out of bringing guys like Vern in for public testimony.
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Mustang is actually a great airplane. Finished on time, promised nothing like Eclipse did, and it does what Cessna said it would do.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
My only hope is that I can pick one of them up cheap ;)

Eclipse pioneered a new market for the jet... and it may have worked out had the Economy taken a dump. If other major manufacturers were willing to follow his lead and create similar aircraft, then there was something for it.


I wish today we saw those that were the likes of Howard Huges. So many times, you see a company sell itself to investors to cover expenses. When things start to hit snags, investors panic and force the company to attempt to cut costs, change designs etc... often spelling doom for the company.

Look at the Telsa roadster... so much promise, but i doubt we will really ever see them
Click to expand...

You pick one up cheap, who is going to work on it? How about parts and factory support?

Vern used one big customer (Dayjet) to pad the order book and attract investment. Lots of people went to work for Eclipse and now are hosed. Added to that, what about the people that work for the investors? I am very close to someone whose boss invested in Eclipse heavily and because of the collapse they lost their job in a completely unrelated industry because of the money their boss lost on Eclipse. It is great to have a dream like Vern did. It is better to have a dream and some sort of personal awareness to know how to shut off your ego and run a business or hire others that know how.
 
WacoFan said:
You pick one up cheap, who is going to work on it? How about parts and factory support?

Vern used one big customer (Dayjet) to pad the order book and attract investment. Lots of people went to work for Eclipse and now are hosed. Added to that, what about the people that work for the investors? I am very close to someone whose boss invested in Eclipse heavily and because of the collapse they lost their job in a completely unrelated industry because of the money their boss lost on Eclipse. It is great to have a dream like Vern did. It is better to have a dream and some sort of personal awareness to know how to shut off your ego and run a business or hire others that know how.
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Don't forget he also padded the book on $500 confirmed orders. $500 down and we'll get the rest from you later, its just like a new car *sniff*, ah new car smell.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Look at the Telsa roadster... so much promise, but i doubt we will really ever see them
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I'd LOVE to have a Tesla. Great car, great concept. Really the only thing holding them back is the price. That's mainly due to the fact that there's not enough demand to churn them out in volume.....yet. I'm still holding out hope that the general public will actually catch on to the electric car idea and not be swayed by the "they don't go fast enough" or "the batteries die before you get to work and back" arguments. It's those arguments that stop the funding to SOLVE the problem in the first place.
 
Guys... joking about picking one up cheap... guess it was a misdirected attempt at feinting humor at the sheer number that were never delivered.

They did spawn a new niche, one that will most likely be killed by the current economy. I think if the Eclipse had focused more on established technology, things would have been different. Be Cool if more small aircraft started using Friction stir welding.. or fadec etc.

How would Eclipse turned out had Rutan and Fossett been at the helm?
 
Well, we all saw it coming. My company owns one and it's a POS. Not certified for icing? GPS not certified? Worse single engine climb performance than our piston twins?

I have no idea what we'll do with it now, but without mx support we couldn't fly it much longer. Seems like we've had to fly it to ABQ every other week to get something fixed.
 
ChristheCFII said:
Well, we all saw it coming. My company owns one and it's a POS. Not certified for icing? GPS not certified? Worse single engine climb performance than our piston twins?

I have no idea what we'll do with it now, but without mx support we couldn't fly it much longer. Seems like we've had to fly it to ABQ every other week to get something fixed.
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Donate it to the NASM? Seriously, at least you would get a deduction then. Pull the avionics that can be pulled and resold, pull the engines off and resell them and then have the sheet metal towed to Washington DC. and deduct the hull value without engines and avionics. Its a thought.
 
WacoFan said:
Donate it to the NASM? Seriously, at least you would get a deduction then. Pull the avionics that can be pulled and resold, pull the engines off and resell them and then have the sheet metal towed to Washington DC. and deduct the hull value without engines and avionics. Its a thought.
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And a good thought, too.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Well... They wouldn't have even tried to certify it for one. Probably would have to be dropped from a 707 for each flight. Some sort of silly canard looking thing.
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true... but it probably would circle the globe at least 2x at some absurd altitude... :)
 
jynxyjoe said:
You're right. I helped certify it. What would I know.
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So you worked on both the mustang and the eclipse... if you did, more power to you. Or you going to play that card, "I can't say too much" or something similar?

I personally know several owners of the C510 and they love it. Can't say the same for the POS Eclipse.
 
My take-away from this is that if someone comes from an unrelated industry, with no experience in the industry they are entering, and tells you how inefficient things are and how they can do it better and revolutionize the business...run away fast. My only hope is that Rayburn lost his net-worth.
Click to expand...

Remember Porsche making Airplane Engines? Smaller scale. But still.
I am sure Mr. Rayburn is just fine. Afterall, it's just a company, few employees and a few million bucks going up in smoke. Whats a few bucks between buddies? Come on!
Sorry.. for the :sarcasm: ...
 
stuckingfk said:
So you worked on both the mustang and the eclipse... if you did, more power to you. Or you going to play that card, "I can't say too much" or something similar?
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Lol. Believe it or not when you have a job like that there are things you are allowed to say and not. It's not always because it's super secret, it's just part of the biz. We aren't like smoking cigars in a back room talking about what we will "release to the public" while watching filmed footage of the JFK shooting from the grassy knoll. I was one employee of one of the MANY companies Cessna had to employ to certify their product.

"Mustang is actually a great airplane. Finished on time, promised nothing like Eclipse did, and it does what Cessna said it would do."

Great airplane, by what metric?

Was not finished on time. I know because I had to listen to the phone call from billy martin telling us that they were being delayed because things our company did. They just moved the finish date back. They promised the same things Eclipse did, I know because I remember when Cessna had to stop calling it a VLJ, and Cessna wanted it to be a lot cheaper and have a lot more range. They wanted a VLJ and they didn't get it. They got an entry level Cessna Citation.
 
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