Eagle "thrown under the bus"? You decide.

BobDDuck said:
I don't know about either of those things. I think it would have been a pretty close vote if the Eagle TA had made it out of the MEC meeting. Also, the PSA MEC didn't roll over. They followed the pilot group's historic desire to have the option to vote on things instead of let a few elected reps decide.
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I understand how you could conclude this, but as an insider to an outsider, let me tell you this- Eagle pilots are *pissed*. Your conclusion is largely speculative.
 
Firebird2XC said:
I understand how you could conclude this, but as an insider to an outsider, let me tell you this- Eagle pilots are *pissed*. Your conclusion is largely speculative.
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It's less speculative than you speculate. But that's neither here nor there. The MEC over there chose to make the decision themselves. The MEC at PSA is choosing to have the pilot group make the decision. There is history that supports that choice at PSA. I don't know if there is history either way at Eagle.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Strange, I'm not aware of any such policy. :rolleyes:
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From a purely outsiders perspective,

The fact that there are two categories, "mainline" and "regional" implies that there is a difference between the pilot jobs. If you don't think that management is using this division against pilots, you're kidding yourself.

At some point in the future, there will be more regional pilots than mainline. It happened at AA with the B scale pilots before, and history is repeating itself.
 
BobDDuck said:
It's less speculative than you speculate. But that's neither here nor there. The MEC over there chose to make the decision themselves. The MEC at PSA is choosing to have the pilot group make the decision. There is history that supports that choice at PSA. I don't know if there is history either way at Eagle.
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Lots of it, but in typical Eagle fashion it's convoluted and needlessly extensive.

Either way, the Eagle MEC decided there was no point in putting it forward. It was my understanding the Eagle MEC reached out to their PSA counterparts, so the impression I'm getting is that a lot of Eagle folks (myself included) were a little surprised it went out for a vote there, as the PSA TA looks pretty bad from what we've been told.
 
USMCmech said:
From a purely outsiders perspective,

The fact that there are two categories, "mainline" and "regional" implies that there is a difference between the pilot jobs. If you don't think that management is using this division against pilots, you're kidding yourself.

At some point in the future, there will be more regional pilots than mainline. It happened at AA with the B scale pilots before, and history is repeating itself.
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You're right, and I think this is why the Eagle MEC was so quick to shut it down. The lessons of history are numerous when it comes to a B scale at AMR.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Lots of it, but in typical Eagle fashion it's convoluted and needlessly extensive.

Either way, the Eagle MEC decided there was no point in putting it forward. It was my understanding the Eagle MEC reached out to their PSA counterparts, so the impression I'm getting is that a lot if Eagle folks (myself included) were a little surprised it went out for a vote there, as the PSA TA looks pretty bad from what we've been told.
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I think it's pretty bad too and that's coming from somebody who busted their ass (you can TOTALLY say ass on here!) to get a section 6 negotiation wrapped up 5 months ago. Having seen how Airways Group (and Ford and Harrison) operate, I don't doubt that this was the best deal the NC could come away from the table with, and I agree that any deal coming off the table SHOULD go out to pilot vote (especially at PSA because of past history), but I am disappointed that the MEC didn't put it out with a thumbs down recommendation. There were politics at play and from what I know, it had to do with the number of votes each LEC had and not the total number of guys that voted one way or the other.
 
USMCmech said:
From a purely outsiders perspective,

The fact that there are two categories, "mainline" and "regional" implies that there is a difference between the pilot jobs.
Click to expand...

Can you show me where that distinction is in policy? I'll give you $100 if you can.

The reality is, these distinctions are dreamed up by conspiracy-minded line pilots, not by a nebulous ALPA bureaucracy that people imagine.

But you want to know where the real divisions get going? With things like the RJDC, where "regional" pilots try to kill mainline scope so they can steal new flying on larger airplanes. That creates divisions. That's why we have mindless idiocy like the DPA going on, distracting union leaders from working on fixing real problems.
 
BobDDuck said:
I think it's pretty bad too and that's coming from somebody who busted their ass (you can TOTALLY say ass on here!) to get a section 6 negotiation wrapped up 5 months ago. Having seen how Airways Group (and Ford and Harrison) operate, I don't doubt that this was the best deal the NC could come away from the table with, and I agree that any deal coming off the table SHOULD go out to pilot vote (especially at PSA because of past history), but I am disappointed that the MEC didn't put it out with a thumbs down recommendation. There were politics at play and from what I know, it had to do with the number of votes each LEC had and not the total number of guys that voted one way or the other.
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Ahhhh... I see. This is, for what it's worth, what I mean when I say the PSA MEC 'rolled over'. For whatever politician reason, they put it out there. I'm not implying they agree with it- I'm just suggesting that for whatever reason they didn't feel able to shut it down at the MEC office.

Granted, I'm generally in favor of elected officials being worried about pissing off their constituents, but man- they should have felt free to pull the trigger on this one.

The thing that *really* worries me is that with some of the new pilot qualification/rest rules coming forward, which moves the ball forward in a big way for all pilots via economic normalization, that anything we do where we voluntarily give up economic items totally undoes that.

This is more than just placement of new air frames. It's a back-handed way to make us cheaper again. If that continues to happen, the end result will be more mainline jobs lost.

Personally, I think the new standard for TAs out of bankruptcy or dire circumstances should be "current book or better, end statement." It's absolutely ESSENTIAL we hold our ground and establish a firm baseline.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Can you show me where that distinction is in policy? I'll give you $100 if you can.

The reality is, these distinctions are dreamed up by conspiracy-minded line pilots, not by a nebulous ALPA bureaucracy that people imagine.

But you want to know where the real divisions get going? With things like the RJDC, where "regional" pilots try to kill mainline scope so they can steal new flying on larger airplanes. That creates divisions. That's why we have mindless idiocy like the DPA going on, distracting union leaders from working on fixing real problems.
Click to expand...

As I said, I'm a complete outsider. The only thing I know about ALPA and the other unions is what I read here and other message boards.

Previously AA said that their ultimate goal was to have ALL domestic narrow-body flying done by regionals, and eventually they will succeed. Why not, instead of fighting a loosing battle for mainline scope, focus on raising the pay of the regionals?
 
Firebird2XC said:
Ahhhh... I see. This is, for what it's worth, what I mean when I say the PSA MEC 'rolled over'. For whatever politician reason, they put it out there. I'm not implying they agree with it- I'm just suggesting that for whatever reason they didn't feel able to shut it down at the MEC office.

Granted, I'm generally in favor of elected officials being worried about pissing off their constituents, but man- they should have felt free to pull the trigger on this one.

The thing that *really* worries me is that with some of the new pilot qualification/rest rules coming forward, which moves the ball forward in a big way for all pilots via economic normalization, that anything we do where we voluntarily give up economic items totally undoes that.

This is more than just placement of new air frames. It's a back-handed way to make us cheaper again. If that continues to happen, the end result will be more mainline jobs lost.

Personally, I think the new standard for TAs out of bankruptcy or dire circumstances should be "current book or better, end statement." It's absolutely ESSENTIAL we hold our ground and establish a firm baseline.
Click to expand...

The weird thing is, the Eagle MEC approached USAir with a B-scale for flow proposal...
 
USMCmech said:
From a purely outsiders perspective,

The fact that there are two categories, "mainline" and "regional" implies that there is a difference between the pilot jobs. If you don't think that management is using this division against pilots, you're kidding yourself.

At some point in the future, there will be more regional pilots than mainline. It happened at AA with the B scale pilots before, and history is repeating itself.
Click to expand...
Let me see, flying jet equipment to the same airports...yeaaaaaah...
 
USMCmech said:
As I said, I'm a complete outsider. The only thing I know about ALPA and the other unions is what I read here and other message boards.
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Not a very good source of info. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the people who post on the online boards are the disgruntled malcontents, not the masses. There's a reason that every time you see a thread on a message board about some TA or LOA, every single person posting is screaming about how horrible it is, but it passes by 85%. As the saying goes, no one ever calls the airline to thank them for not losing their luggage.

Previously AA said that their ultimate goal was to have ALL domestic narrow-body flying done by regionals, and eventually they will succeed. Why not, instead of fighting a loosing battle for mainline scope, focus on raising the pay of the regionals?
Click to expand...

I reject your premise on two points: 1) mainline scope is not a losing battle; and 2) it's not an either/or proposition.

A dividing line at 76 seats has been held for years now. It's not moving. Mainline pilots may allow a few more hulls, but not more seats. And there's only so much that management can do with 76-seat jets. In case you haven't noticed, the flying has been shifting back to mainline lately. Not the other way around.

And when it comes to regional pay, it's easy to say "focus on it," but it's a bit harder to actually raise it when the leverage is virtually non-existent. The time may come when the leverage exists, as the regionals start losing tons of pilots to the mainline carriers while their pipeline of new regional guys dries up. But that day isn't today. Right now, there are still more regional carriers and pilots than the mainline carriers need, and that gives them the ability to whipsaw everyone against each other. Refuse to play the game? Then you're the next Comair. Richard Anderson has been doing this for years, and now the other carriers have joined in on the "fun." But if you wait patiently for when the leverage exists, and use the meantime to develop career advancement programs for the pilots already at the regionals who want to move up to the mainline carriers, then you have a workable strategy. The "Stop the Whipsaw" crowd over on Facebook doesn't have a workable strategy. They just have a bunch of anger.
 
ALPA wants to perpetuate the myth that by slugging your way through the regionals will ensure a job at the legacy carriers. There is a finite amount of money that the industry is going to devote to their payroll, and the clout for getting the bigger slice of that pie doesn't rest with the lower tier of the 1.95% of dues paying members.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Not a very good source of info. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the people who post on the online boards are the disgruntled malcontents, not the masses. There's a reason that every time you see a thread on a message board about some TA or LOA, every single person posting is screaming about how horrible it is, but it passes by 85%. As the saying goes, no one ever calls the airline to thank them for not losing their luggage.



I reject your premise on two points: 1) mainline scope is not a losing battle; and 2) it's not an either/or proposition.

A dividing line at 76 seats has been held for years now. It's not moving. Mainline pilots may allow a few more hulls, but not more seats. And there's only so much that management can do with 76-seat jets. In case you haven't noticed, the flying has been shifting back to mainline lately. Not the other way around.

And when it comes to regional pay, it's easy to say "focus on it," but it's a bit harder to actually raise it when the leverage is virtually non-existent. The time may come when the leverage exists, as the regionals start losing tons of pilots to the mainline carriers while their pipeline of new regional guys dries up. But that day isn't today. Right now, there are still more regional carriers and pilots than the mainline carriers need, and that gives them the ability to whipsaw everyone against each other. Refuse to play the game? Then you're the next Comair. Richard Anderson has been doing this for years, and now the other carriers have joined in on the "fun." But if you wait patiently for when the leverage exists, and use the meantime to develop career advancement programs for the pilots already at the regionals who want to move up to the mainline carriers, then you have a workable strategy. The "Stop the Whipsaw" crowd over on Facebook doesn't have a workable strategy. They just have a bunch of anger.
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Aren't some regionals unable to fill classes now? The interwebs are reporting republic and silver.
 
Pilots scabs owners.jpg
 
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