DUI Question

[av8rdrew]

Wow! I step away for a few days and...

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I think the best course of action would be for me to talk to Attorney Armstrong and I am always at PDK and have flown in and out of there a million times.

As for disclosure, it was never my intent to misrepresent anything to anyone with regard to employment or the FAA; especially considering that I sent a letter to OKC and that letter was acknowledged with a FAA brochure about DUI being mailed to my home. I know I'm not the first or the last pilot to deal with this. It could've been a lot worse.

I'll disclose as necessary. Since we all know there are pilots who've had the same problem and are working for major airlines and in other flying positions, why should I think that I'd be THE ONE who will be "barred for life". Honesty's always the best policy, I just needed to know how to handle things considering this will likely be expunged and I've got my answer. Thanks to everyone for the feedback. It is appreciated.

Drew,

I used to work as an Assistant Solicitor (state court prosecutor) in Georgia. There's not an easy answer to your question for several reasons.

Pre-trial diversion or "DUI Court" as it's commonly referred to, is a relatively new concept in Georgia. I'm not sure of how the courts exchange information with the state DMV or the National Driver Registry. Thus, while the disposition of your case may not statutorily be considered a "conviction", your participation in the diversion program may still be reported.

There are usually two types suspensions in a DUI case. The first, the "administrative suspension", happens when a driver refuses a BAC test or when a test result shows a BAC in excess of .08. Both kinds are usually reported to the DMV. Sometimes, a nice cop will cut you a break and "forget" to file a "1205" form, in which case your license will not be suspended before disposition of your court case and there will be no

I presume you were fingerprinted upon arrest. Congratulations, you've joined the National Crime Information Center and Georgia crime Information Center. Your arrest, regardless of disposition of the charges, has been recorded and will probably be disclosed to the FAA.

My advice, as an attorney and ATP, is that by disclosing your DUI to the FAA, you may have to jump through a few extra hoops to get your medical. However, if you do not disclose it and the FAA discovers it, you may never fly again.

Attorney Alan Armstrong, who is an FAA enforcement defense genius, is based in Georgia near KPDK. I suggest you spend a few $$ for a brief consultation. In the same building is Dr. Stephen Leonard, an Aviation Medical Examiner and ATP who is a whiz at resolving pilot medical issues with the FAA.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Wow! I step away for a few days and...

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I think the best course of action would be for me to talk to Attorney Armstrong and I am always at PDK and have flown in and out of there a million times.

As for disclosure, it was never my intent to misrepresent anything to anyone with regard to employment or the FAA; especially considering that I sent a letter to OKC and that letter was acknowledged with a FAA brochure about DUI being mailed to my home. I know I'm not the first or the last pilot to deal with this. It could've been a lot worse.

I'll disclose as necessary. Since we all know there are pilots who've had the same problem and are working for major airlines and in other flying positions, why should I think that I'd be THE ONE who will be "barred for life". Honesty's always the best policy, I just needed to know how to handle things considering this will likely be expunged and I've got my answer. Thanks to everyone for the feedback. It is appreciated.

Just so you guys know, there is still opportunity despite past mistakes. I personally know of a pilot that made a VERY big mistake involving substance abuse where I work. He paid the price, and really had a lot to work through. But he did it, and even ended up developing our HIMS program. He was always honest about his past, and has been at United for over a year now.

 

[av8rdrew]

Well CaptBill,

It's not as if I travel with a breathalyzer and .127, to me, at the time, had little effect, but it's the law that counts, not the effect of alcohol on my body.

In my DUI class, there were two people who claimed they only had two beers when they blew over the legal limit. Poor discretion? We've all made mistakes, that's a part of living. We've all exercised less than perfect judgment at some point.

As for the recruiters, there's a lot of organizations out there who can use my skills and there's an entire planet out there in need of people who know how to fly airplanes. Everyone will not say no. Fortunately for the planet, everyone does not think like you.

I've learned that honesty, or lack thereof, will be the first thing to get you fired. Don't lie about anything- be transparent.

Secondly, why were you driving a car blowing a 0.127 ?
I know we all make mistakes but that is clearly demonstrating poor discretion. The recruiter will say " why do we hire a guy that doesn't follow rules"'? I once was one and a recent DUI would put your file in a pile that you don't want to find it in.

I'm just being real.

 

[CaptBill]

Well CaptBill,



In my DUI class, there were two people who claimed they only had two beers when they blew over the legal limit. Poor discretion? We've all made mistakes, that's a part of living. We've all exercised less than perfect judgment at some point.

As for the recruiters, there's a lot of organizations out there who can use my skills and there's an entire planet out there in need of people who know how to fly airplanes. Everyone will not say no. Fortunately for the planet, everyone does not think like you.

I was going to just let this go, but can't. Before you read any further, please understand I want the best for you...I know we all make mistakes and that we aren't all perfect. Now we've covered all the feel good stuff.
First things first, there isn't a whole planet out there in need of people who know how to fly airplanes. There is; however, an entire planet out there in need of professional pilots who employ wisdom and thinking in their craft - there's a big difference. The truth is, there are career implications and life implications by drinking alcohol and making a conscientious decision to operate a motor vehicle. I have a nephew that just got out of prison after serving seven years for vehicular homicide after having consumed three beers. He went in at 17, and just got out 2 days after his 25th birthday. He's a pretty normal "come from a good family" kid and could of been any of us. I also had a close friend whose husband and child were killed by a drunk driver. So av8rdrew, you asked earlier "Poor discretion?" like you expected the majority of us to say "Oh poor DUI classmate of yours, he exercised good discretion but was just a victim of the system. It's not the fact that you got a DUI that doesn't sit well with me. You have decided to attempt to enter a career path where small decisions have big, no huge, implications and you are trying to trivialize, or maybe minimize is a better word, that people shouldn't drink alcohol and then jump in their cars to drive. Serious question Drew: Are you OK jumping into a 172 blowing a .0127 since you explained that it had such "little effect" on you? Apparently you felt it was OK to drive under those conditions? There are newspapers full of those same people who only had a few beers in story after story telling about how they destroyed property, hurt or killed people and worst of all, shattered lives of those left living that now get to go through life trying to figure out the WHYs?

Are there people flying airplanes that drink too much? Of course there is but there shouldn't be. Your attitude just seems to say, I did it, but how can I not get this noticed so I can get me a flying job?

I would start by accepting some responsibility, especially on an aviation site like this, that you were wrong to drive with a .0127 (150 percent of the legal limit) and stop tying to explain it away as a flawed law or some other kind of lame excuse. There are far too many aviation accidents and lives lost where pilots explained away, blamed others or simply kidded themselves that they were immune to responsibility and accountability. There are a lot of young guys on this forum who are forming opinions about pathways and the way to get what they want out of aviation. I'll say this again real loud, If you get a DUI on your journey to becoming a professional pilot, your life will be made much harder, and it will likely keep you out of the the most desirable jobs - period. But even more important than just not getting a DUI, it's critical to start really thinking about things like discretion, responsibility, dependability and recognizing that just because you might get away with something, it's not OK to do if it has the potential to derail what you dream of becoming. That's a real important concept and worthy of some contemplation.

As for not everyone thinking like me, I'm OK with that. But, if a few more out there that thought like me, they would be sitting in the left seat of an airliner doing what they loved, rather that regretting some real dumb decision doing what they hate. Life is full of decisions, and consequences.

Hopefully you will find your answers Drew. I'll get out of it and give it back to the lawyers.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I would go with highly unlikely. Screenshots of past driving records?

Don't lay down any bets. In my home state, this information is collected, retained, and marketed by private entities, primarily to HR departments. In some cases, they are just engaged in cyber-extortion, charging you a sum for information removal.

In Kentucky, District and Circuit Court dockets are online. Private firms scrape this data and retain it regardless of eventual outcome. Oddly, Kentucky makes it tougher for these firms to establish the final disposition of cases. Consequently, everybody looks guilty as these firms don't buy the court records. These firms also capture data from jail websites, mug shots and all. Once again, they don't care about the final determination in the case...but they will remove it for a fee.

In the past 15 years, I received two moving violations. One was erased after completing online driving school and the other was diverted for six months and erased. Both cases would have appeared on the court docket even though they will never appear on a DMV record.

 

[rockman2343@aol.com]

. I'll say this again real loud, If you get a DUI on your journey to becoming a professional pilot, your life will be made much harder, and it will likely keep you out of the the most desirable jobs - period.
Hopefully you will find your answers Drew. I'll get out of it and give it back to the lawyers.

I don't know about "period." I have a friend who is an air force pilot with a DUI, and I know at my base of at least two other pilots with them. I'm sure most of us have heard of airline and corporate pilots with them. I'm actually surprised that the real deal breaker seems to be not being able to go into Canada, more than the DUI itself.

I'm not saying that a DUI is a resume builder or that it's not irresponsible, just pointing out that a good economy, as well as who you know, sometimes is enough to make companies look the other way.

 

[CaptBill]

I don't know about "period." I have a friend who is an air force pilot with a DUI, and I know at my base of at least two other pilots with them. I'm sure most of us have heard of airline and corporate pilots with them. I'm actually surprised that the real deal breaker seems to be not being able to go into Canada, more than the DUI itself.

I'm not saying that a DUI is a resume builder or that it's not irresponsible, just pointing out that a good economy, as well as who you know, sometimes is enough to make companies look the other way.

"If you get a DUI on your journey to becoming a professional pilot, your life will be made much harder, and it will likely keep you out of the the most desirable jobs - period."

There are always a few exceptions as I alluded to above. The odds are not in your favor though for the best jobs
that many are competing for.

I believe in second chances and there are good people who do dumb things...I've done my share. I guess the point in all of this is to remind our young members who are looking forward to flying for a career to avoid as many of these "career buster" things as you can. Avoiding them is likely easier than fixing them as we've read in this thread. I'm not criticizing the OP for asking a legitimate question and I wish him all the best in getting it all straightened out so he can move forward. I apologize for inserting myself into a thread that I probably should have avoided. Live and learn......Good Luck OP

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I don't know about "period." I have a friend who is an air force pilot with a DUI, and I know at my base of at least two other pilots with them. I'm sure most of us have heard of airline and corporate pilots with them. I'm actually surprised that the real deal breaker seems to be not being able to go into Canada, more than the DUI itself.

In the military, it's all about timing. Establish yourself as a good pilot and officer first and the military can deal with a DUI. Get the DUI before your wings and you have a lot to overcome in a competitive environment.

 

[at1024]

Don't lay down any bets. In my home state, this information is collected, retained, and marketed by private entities, primarily to HR departments. In some cases, they are just engaged in cyber-extortion, charging you a sum for information removal.

I have a couple of speeding tickets from 10 years ago, and the state I was licensed in at the time only keeps them on record for 3 years. I went ahead and disclosed them when I applied to the regionals just to be on the safe side (Airline Apps asks for all infractions), just in the case of what you mentioned above.

It seems like it would be illegal for a private company to retain information like this, readily provided to anyone, and then charge a fee to remove it.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I have a couple of speeding tickets from 10 years ago, and the state I was licensed in at the time only keeps them on record for 3 years. I went ahead and disclosed them when I applied to the regionals just to be on the safe side (Airline Apps asks for all infractions), just in the case of what you mentioned above.

It seems like it would be illegal for a private company to retain information like this, readily provided to anyone, and then charge a fee to remove it.

It's sketchy. One that I've seen will remove it for a fee if you say you were not convicted OR say that the posting places you at risk for violence. They don't confirm anything before deleting.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

In my DUI class, there were two people who claimed they only had two beers when they blew over the legal limit.

Ah. If Letterman did a top 10 list of things drivers say when stopped for a possible DUI, this would be #1. With #2 way behind.

I actually asked the question during cross of an officer in a case.

Q: how many people have you stopped for a DUI who said they only had 2 beers?

A: All of them.

 

[xdashdriver]

Ah. If Letterman did a top 10 list of things drivers say when stopped for a possible DUI, this would be #1. With #2 way behind.

I actually asked the question during cross of an officer in a case.

Q: how many people have you stopped for a DUI who said they only had 2 beers?

A: All of them.

Yup. My typical response "ok. You mean 2 pitchers?"

 

[exneophyte]

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Well CaptBill,

It's not as if I travel with a breathalyzer and .127, to me, at the time, had little effect, but it's the law that counts, not the effect of alcohol on my body.

In my DUI class, there were two people who claimed they only had two beers when they blew over the legal limit. Poor discretion? We've all made mistakes, that's a part of living. We've all exercised less than perfect judgment at some point.

As for the recruiters, there's a lot of organizations out there who can use my skills and there's an entire planet out there in need of people who know how to fly airplanes. Everyone will not say no. Fortunately for the planet, everyone does not think like you.

Maybe you should consider traveling with a breahalizer. They are cheap.

Most of the planet, at least the aviation employed planet, does in fact think the way captBill does. You have an awesome responsibility, in the public's eye, when you fly them around.

I have watched two friends screw their lives up with DUIs this year. And they both, easily, could have killed someone. Neither of them has really acknowledged any responsibility, which it sounds like you haven't either.

You want to have a few drinks? Great. Don't drive. The head of the FAA lost his job for doing just that. You can most certainly ruin a career, or prevent one from ever happending.

It is most certainly a double standard now. When I was younger, as Tom Wolfe wrote, Flying & Drinking and Drinking & Driving may have been the sport of the military pilot. It is most absolutely not acceptable now.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Ah. If Letterman did a top 10 list of things drivers say when stopped for a possible DUI, this would be #1. With #2 way behind.

I actually asked the question during cross of an officer in a case.

Q: how many people have you stopped for a DUI who said they only had 2 beers?

A: All of them.

The thought process is this: "If I say one beer, the officer is going to know that I'm lying, because one beer is not going to smell like this on my breath, and cause my eyes to be bloodshot. But if I say three beers, that may put me over the legal limit, and I don't want to admit that and get a DUI. So I'll say two beers, because that's believable, and I may skirt a DUI." Faulty logic...

 

[GX]

Don't lay down any bets. In my home state, this information is collected, retained, and marketed by private entities, primarily to HR departments. In some cases, they are just engaged in cyber-extortion, charging you a sum for information removal.

In Kentucky, District and Circuit Court dockets are online. Private firms scrape this data and retain it regardless of eventual outcome. Oddly, Kentucky makes it tougher for these firms to establish the final disposition of cases. Consequently, everybody looks guilty as these firms don't buy the court records. These firms also capture data from jail websites, mug shots and all. Once again, they don't care about the final determination in the case...but they will remove it for a fee.

In the past 15 years, I received two moving violations. One was erased after completing online driving school and the other was diverted for six months and erased. Both cases would have appeared on the court docket even though they will never appear on a DMV record.

In the land of crime for profit, I am not in the least bit surprised. Sadly.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The thought process is this: "If I say one beer, the officer is going to know that I'm lying, because one beer is not going to smell like this on my breath, and cause my eyes to be bloodshot. But if I say three beers, that may put me over the legal limit, and I don't want to admit that and get a DUI. So I'll say two beers, because that's believable, and I may skirt a DUI." Faulty logic...

You are assuming there's any thought process at all.

BTW, there is a "rest of the story" to my cross. But you have to buy me a beer to hear it

 

[killbilly]

The thought process is this: "If I say one beer, the officer is going to know that I'm lying, because one beer is not going to smell like this on my breath, and cause my eyes to be bloodshot. But if I say three beers, that may put me over the legal limit, and I don't want to admit that and get a DUI. So I'll say two beers, because that's believable, and I may skirt a DUI." Faulty logic...

Yeah.

Answering ANYTHING is providing evidence.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Yeah.

Answering ANYTHING is providing evidence.

Eh, sort of. But police don't base their opinion of whether someone is DUI or not based on what they say, because 90% of the time the person is lying anyways. Even if someone says they had six beers, they probably had twelve...