Dual Received in a Sim

CFI_Ty

New Member
Quick question. If you are given instruction in an FAA approved sim (AST-300) and logging it in your logbook, is it required to log the time in the dual received column as well? I did my training at ATP and 50 hours of the time is in the sim, mostly preparing for the instrument checkride and it is all logged in the "Flight Simulator" column but none in the "Dual Received" column. I never really thought about it back then but i'm thinking the instruction needs to be logged to. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
 
IMO, sim time is sim time, regardless of if solo or dual. IMO, the dual column is for actual flying, and even with that, dual time does nothing for you. Dual is another of those hour columns I don't bother logging anymore, haven't for the last 6 years. The best thing it did for me was tell me which flights were not solo in my first logbook, since that particular logbook didn't have a solo column, it only had a PIC column. So that's the extent of logging dual did for me.
 
Ya i'm not asking this because I want it in there so it gives me more time and looks good on my resume or anything. Its just that I heard recently that you must log it as dual received if you want to use that time towards a certificate or rating or it isn't usable. The guy that told me this said that it is required because you can only log sim time if there is an instructor there so thats the reason why he needs to sign it and log it as dual received. I wasn't sure if this was correct or not so thats why i'm on here asking for your thoughts on it.
 
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Ya i'm not asking this because I want it in there so it gives me more time and looks good on my resume or anything. Its just that I heard recently that you must log it as dual received if you want to use that time towards a certificate or rating or it isn't usable.

[/ QUOTE ]IMO, it's probably a good idea to log it that way, but you don't have to.

Let's start with the reg (amazing what you find when you start there:

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61.51(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.
==============================

So, clearly, it is logable as training received. Do you have to? Well, the general rule is that if it ain't recorded in your logbook, it doesn't exist. If you are going to count the time toward training requirements, the device time has to be logged as training time in some way. Don't log it as training; can't count it as training.

But at some point, so long as you don't violate something in 61.51, how you choose to record some things is up to you. Most common example is cross country time. Do you record only the >50 NM type for certificate and ratings, or do you keep track of all point-to-point flights for eventual 135 requirements. The only real rule is that what you want counted and how to count is has to be c lear from the logbook, not from talking to youon the phone about what you were doing.

In the context of device time, do you want to put it all in one column and separate it as needed later? Sure go ahead. Do you want to keep a pure "dual received in flight" column? Go right ahead and leave device time out of it.The training in device time is pretty easy to identify it as training time. The required instructor endorsement (all training time must be endorsed) is a clue. Want to make it clearer? Put the word "traiing" in the renmarks column next to the endorsement.

BTW, it won't give you a better looking resume. I have a feeling that prospective employers are looking at flight time (unless it's a =real= special simulator) and time in a device is just not flight time.
 
FAR 61.51 Pilot Logbooks

Training time and aeronautical experience.
Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the administrator:

FAR 61.51 (d)(2)(iv):Flight and ground training recieved from an authorized instructor----


FAR 61.51 (d)(2)(v):Training recieved in a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor---


the first part more or less tells you that you have to specify when you have had instruction during flight, a.k.a. DUAL RECIEVED. i believe thats all the dual recieved column is intended for, just dual flight instruction recieved. and you also must log ground time that was spent with a CFI if you want it to count toward a license or rating, a.k.a. 141 programs and what not. most logs have a section in the back for that.

the second part says that the column for simulator/FTD in your logbook is for those times instruction was given to you by a CFI in a sim or FTD. you can't log FTD/SIM time unless you were being given instruction by a CFI, hence whenever you log SIM/FTD time it is implied that "dual" instruction time in a SIM/FTD was recieved for that time you were in the SIM/FTD.


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Its just that I heard recently that you must log it as dual received if you want to use that time towards a certificate or rating or it isn't usable

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as stated above, any time logged under SIM/FTD is implied to have been dual instruction. if you could log SIM/FTD without instruction being given i'd have about a million hours of SIM/FTD time. (sim is free for employees
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Oh no, i've become so comfortable with the JC Forums that i'm starting to use you guys before checking the FAR/AIM. I dont know what I was thinking on that one, I better start remembering to try and find the answer one my own before I come here and make a fool of myself
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I do appreciate your help though guys.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Oh no, i've become so comfortable with the JC Forums that i'm starting to use you guys before checking the FAR/AIM. I dont know what I was thinking on that one, I better start remembering to try and find the answer one my own before I come here and make a fool of myself

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I have noticed you're sort of a slacker CFI ....
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Midlife, agree on the XC logging. I've always logged all takeoff from one airport and landing at another as XC. Early on in my career, I had to sort out which one was which for qualifying XC time, nowdays of course, it doesn't matter. For me, it was simply not having to fill up two columns of the logbook with XC time, but again, that's simply personal preference.
 
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you can't log FTD/SIM time unless you were being given instruction by a CFI

[/ QUOTE ]Welllllll.... We probably shouldn't go there, but technically you can.

Under 61.51(g)(4),
==============================
A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.
==============================

Nothing about training. Obviously, not logable as "training" but the reg allows, say, an instrument pilot to log approaches and holds for currency in a device without instruction being received, so long as a CFI is there (monitoring?) (verifying?) (dribbling mustard on his shirt while eating a hot dog?) (doing handstands?)

Weird thing about that part of the reg (other than trying to picture a CFI doing handstands while eating a hot dog) - silent on how to write it up. No endorsement is mentioned; not even a requirement to list the name of who was there like the safety pilot rule.
 
FAR battle royale!
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61.51(b)(2)(v)

must log---training recieved in a flight simulator or flight training training device from an authorized instructor---

thats what the FTD/SIM column is for in your logbook, no need to log dual as well. its already implied that anything in the FTD/SIM column was with an authorized instructor.
 
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thats what the FTD/SIM column is for in your logbook, no need to log dual as well. its already implied that anything in the FTD/SIM column was with an authorized instructor.

[/ QUOTE ]True. But not necessary that it involved flight training. The two sections don't battle.
 
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