Dual received count towards TT?
- Thread starter Matt13C
- Start date
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Yes, Dual does count towards TT. Also, after you get your PPL you can log DUAL Received and PIC on the same flight.
Welcome!
Welcome!
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Yes, dual recieved counts as total time.
Welcome the wild world of aviation....
Thanks and Thanks!
I got my first "real pilot", going somewhere for a purpose, experience today. My flight school had to fly an airplane to their maintenance facility and I offered to pick the instructor up. :rawk:
the_dmn8tr
New Member
Was a CFI with you when you went to pick up the other instructor? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you consider the hours you logged picking up the CFI compensation, even though you were paying to operate the aircraft, making it a commercial operation? That is just my interpretation, been studying for the CSEL oral tomorrow.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
You are studying way too hard if you're trying to figure out if flight time that you pay for 100% is "receiving compensation."
Even if the question is actually, "is it compensation if the pilot is comped for the flight," I'd be surprised if a DPE, especially one who actually knew what he was talking about in this area, would do any more than scratch the surface of the flight for compensation rules.
Wolfy
Well-Known Member
Experience isn't compensation, no matter what some regional airlines will try to tell you.
If they offered him some credit towards free flying time, that could be called bartering.
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Yes, the CFI was with me, it was logged as dual received.
This is just my interpretation but the only person who is allowed in the plane with me while I train is a CFI. That being the case, I must log it as dual received. If not then I am breaking the "no passengers while training" regulation.
Here is a question though. Once I receive my private, if I were to work for the school could I then ferry the planes back and forth to maintenance or to gas up some place cheaper? Would that be considered compensation? What if I pay for the fuel used, then I am paying to fly, just at an extremely discounted rate?
Clocks
Well-Known Member
Who says you can't have someone else on the plane during a training flight?
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
The FAA? FAR 61.89 I can have someone in the plane if there is also an instructor, but I cant just take up a passenger. If the instructor did not log it as dual received then he would technically be considered a passenger, which is against regs.
Unless you were talking about the IOE for the airlines, that is different ha ha.
tgrayson
New Member
If the instructor is on board, he will be regarded as PIC, regardless of how he logs it. And carrying passengers is fine on training flights. It's done every day.
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Yeah, which is what i was saying, I could not log it as PIC.
Are you saying on my cross country I could bring my father along, with no instructor? As I understand it, that is illegal as per 61.89. If the instructor was with me it would be fine though.
Again, what I am really curious about is: Once I receive my private, if I were to work for the school could I then ferry the planes back and forth to maintenance or to gas up some place cheaper? Would that be considered compensation? What if I pay for the fuel used, then I am paying to fly, just at an extremely discounted rate?
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
What he meant by "training flight" was dual flight. You cannot take any passengers as a student pilot. Your CFI is not a passenger. When your CFI is with you, he is the PIC, so you may take passengers then.
If you are ferrying planes for compensation or hire, you are acting as a commercial pilot. I would say what you are suggesting is not legal, since they would be compensating you with a discount.
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
But if I payed for the fuel used wouldn't it be the same as a rich uncle allowing me to use his plane for free, just provide fuel, while training and just pay for the CFI? Both situations I pay well below "average" but I am still paying for what is needed for the flight. Or is the issue not that I am using the plane cheap, but that I am doing it while providing a service to a business.
This was never discussed , I was just thinking of ways to get reduced rate time to build up my 250. I guess I have to find a rich uncle.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
A rich uncle is different than a flight school giving you a discount (compensation) for your services as a pilot.
Wolfy
Well-Known Member
My interpretation is that it's fine for him to ferry the airplanes around for free. A discount on the flight itself is not compensation. All you're doing is flying somebody else's airplane for free. You're receiving no compensation, you're not being hired.
Also, I really doubt you're going to save the school any money by flying the airplane somewhere else for cheaper gas. It just uses too much to get there in the first place.
Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
Also, I really doubt you're going to save the school any money by flying the airplane somewhere else for cheaper gas. It just uses too much to get there in the first place.
Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
EineBeBoP
Well-Known Member
I think it still counts as compensation if hes getting logged time without paying for it. Doesn't matter what hes doing with the plane.
Wolfy
Well-Known Member
He's not getting logged time. You don't receive time, no one is giving it to him. He's doing something for free and recording the event in a book. Flight experience is nontransferable, nontaxable. It's not compensation. The aircraft rental for the flight isn't compensation. He's just using it to do something for free for the owner. It would be like asking someone to mow my lawn for me. Is he suddenly my employee because he's getting lawn mower experience?
If they told him after the flight he could have 1 hour aircraft rental for free for doing the job, that's compensation.
If they told him after the flight he could have 1 hour aircraft rental for free for doing the job, that's compensation.