dual night x/c training

cessnajockey454

cessnajockey454

Well-Known Member
If you begin the required 100 mile night flight 30 minutes before dark and continue on for 95 miles, having flown and logged half of the inbound leg at night, land at night and return at night (stopping for fuel on the way back), would it satisfy the FAR night training requirements since over 100 miles were flown at night?

Or does it have to be a single flight that actually starts at night and ends at night?
 
The bible tells us: 61.109(a)(2) Except as provided in 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nm total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic patter) at an airport.

So, to answer your question yes it would count. But the 30 minutes you were in the daylight wouldn't count as night flight. So, if your flight was 3 hours total and you did complete the 10 stop and gos but you started 30 minutes early you would have 2.5hrs of night flight, a 100 hour cross-country and 10 landings. So all you would have to do is fly 30 minutes after dark and you'd be golden.
 
That's what I thought but I had an examiner reschedule a student's checkride after looking through his logbook because he says the night x/c has to be one flight that has to begin at night and end at night and that any other way to look at it is an interpretation of the FARS and that we are not supposed to interpret the FARS but to follow them to the letter.

To clarify, I gave him a scenario where we would take off 30 minutes before dark and fly the Skyhawk for 4 hours non-stop in one direction with 3.5 hours being after dark for a total distance of about 350 miles of straight-line VFR darkness. He still says that it would not qualify since the flight has to begin after dark.

I read the FAR and asked where it says that. He quoted the FAR as saying : "One night cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles (NM) total distance" as meaning that it says "one night cross-country flight" and that it does not say "one part day-time, part night-time x/c flight" .

And even though it may be logged as to where night began on the flight, there is no way to document that - so it does not count.

I pointed out that there is no way to document that any instruction actually took place. Afterall, we may have just sat in the plane while it idled for 40+ hours. So if nothing is actually provable, then how can we prove where night began except by our word.

After a lengthy discussion, he still decided that we will have to re-fly our night x/c and this time begin the flight at night and end it at night.

So that's what I'm doing tonight.

He also said that this is not the first time that this has happened and that I could call the FSDO and ask them...and after they "stop laughing' at the thought that some people actually believe that a night x/c could begin in the daytime (EVEN THOUGH ALMOST 200 MILES, TWICE THE REQUIRED DISTANCE, WERE FLOWN AT NIGHT WITH NIGHT LANDINGS AT TWO AIRPORTS!!!), they would reaffirm his position.

I read the FAR and re-read it and maybe I'm too stubborn or stupid to understand where it says that the flight has to begin BEFORE dark.
 
That guy is a jerk, I would get a new DPE for the ride and then write a letter to the FSDO reporting the guy.
 
bigdaddy said:
That's what I thought but I had an examiner reschedule a student's checkride after looking through his logbook because he says the night x/c has to be one flight that has to begin at night and end at night .
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I think agree with the examiner. A single flight consists of at least one takeoff and one landing. A flight doesn't begin somewhere in the air enroute. If you follow the FAR definition of "flight time" (which is, after all, what we log), it "commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing"

A flight at night consists of at least one takeoff and one landing at night. A 100 nm night flight is one where there is at least one takeoff and one landing and covers at least 100 nm, all of it at night.

I'm not sure I understand the 95 miles part. How does 95 miles at night make it 100 miles at night? Maybe I don't really understand the question. What was the actual route and what part of it was during the day and what part of it was at night?
 
This student, whose flight did not qualify, began in the daytime, then had flown over 50 miles after it got dark, landed at night, flew another 75 miles back, landed for fuel at night, then took off again and flew another 20 miles back to the original point of departure. The examiner says the first 50 miles at night does not count and that's it a shame that the return flight was just 95 miles.

Using his reasoning, would the required IFR X/C flight not qualify if you picked up your clearance shortly after take-off? Because that would put the taxi and take-off under VFR conditions and the entire 'flight' which must include, using this logic, the taxi and take-off have to be conducted under IFR rules.

Afterall, the rules go something like this:

"Cross-country flight procedures that include at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR"

And Does that mean if the clearance is not obtained prior to taxi that the "flight" would not qualify since, as defined, the "flight", which must be conducted under instrument flight rules, must include taxi and take-off?

Anyway, we log all types of time during a "flight" - one flight often has all kinds of different things logged like IMC, VMC, Day, Night... It's silly to think that we'd have to land at dark, then take off again to log night time flight.

Besides, this student actually got more than the required night x/c of 100 miles - but we had to make a shorter night x/c to qualify since the longer night x/c didn't, under his reasoning, qualify. It makes allot of sense.:sarcasm:.

Of course, I don't mind flying another x/c...it's just that I don't like being wrong:) .
 
Now I see what you are saying. I really don't think the answer is all that clear. I don't know if any FAA interpretations or even an old FAQ that deals with the issue.

But I can definitely see the FAA saying that it's a flight that is completely at night from taxi to takeoff to landing.

It's silly to think that we'd have to land at dark, then take off again to log night time flight.
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I don't know if you are right or wrong in the ultimate answer, but it is not a logging issue. The question isn't whether you can log night time if you took off before night - obviously you can (although that first landing won't count for currency). The question is whether all or only part of a =night training= flight needs to be done at night.

I can really see this one going either way.
 
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