Dual Given

element94

element94

Well-Known Member
Had a guy the other day who didn't want me to sign his logbook or log it as "dual received". Obviously, as sole manipulator, he can log that flight time.

But, can I log it as dual given without providing that training endorsement in his logbook? While acting as a CFI, do I even need to log is as "dual given", or can I just log the flight time?

Sort of an unusual situation, so I thought I'd ask.

-John
 
I no lawyer, but dual given needs to be logged, so if it didn't happen I don't think it should show up in your book either.
buuuuut, who is going to know? I'd just play my cards differently next time.

Sketch.
Is he ashamed of Dual Received?
 
His logbook is his business, yours is yours.

Did you instruct him during the flight? If so, log it. No real defense needed here if you're legitimately doing your job.
 
element94 said:
But, can I log it as dual given without providing that training endorsement in his logbook?
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Of course. Your own logging requirements/privileges are not dependent on your endorsement responsibilities, one of which is to sign the logbook of each person to whom you have provided training, as per 61.189(a).
 
Purpose of the flight? He wanted to file and go somewhere at night...he isn't rated yet for that. You've got me as to why he passed on the endorsement, he doesn't particularly need the dual time for anything though.

I'm not complaining, I know the guy well, he knows his stuff, too...I just want to be sure I can log the flight time.
 
element94 said:
Purpose of the flight? He wanted to file and go somewhere at night...he isn't rated yet for that. You've got me as to why he passed on the endorsement, he doesn't particularly need the dual time for anything though.

I'm not complaining, I know the guy well, he knows his stuff, too...I just want to be sure I can log the flight time.
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Well since you're an instructor maybe you could use the FARs to justify why you shouldn't log the time and give us a bit more insight into your concerns.
 
element94 said:
he doesn't particularly need the dual time for anything though.
...I just want to be sure I can log the flight time.
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Yes, you can log the flight time, in accordance with FAR 61.51(e)(3).

61.189(a) says you must sign the logbook of each person to whom you have given flight or ground training, so you are violating that rule, but you are still legal to log dual given, since you actually did.

I say it is like logging actual instrument when you are illegally on actual instruments. It's still IMC, and loggable as such, but it was in a not legal situation.

Same thing with the CFI not signing the student's logbook - you're violating 61.189(a), but you are still in compliance with 61.51(e)(3).
 
Guess I'll have to coax him into letting me sign that entry next time we go flying. Short of stealing his logbook and doing it myself, I'm not sure really how else to do it to ensure compliance with 61.189(a).

Thanks for the help guys.
 
Well from what you've described its pretty clear you were required to be there and he doesn't yet have the privileges for what he's doing, and as you were giving flight instruction, you need to sign his logbook as such.
 
element94 said:
Guess I'll have to coax him into letting me sign that entry next time we go flying. Short of stealing his logbook and doing it myself, I'm not sure really how else to do it to ensure compliance with 61.189(a).

Thanks for the help guys.
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how could he log it as PIC, but isn't rated for the flight?

if the training was not for a cert/rating, then i don't think you need to sign his book (i could be wrong, i am tired and didn't look it up first)
 
Blip16 said:
how could he log it as PIC, but isn't rated for the flight?

if the training was not for a cert/rating, then i don't think you need to sign his book (i could be wrong, i am tired and didn't look it up first)
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It could have been VFR, and no inst./sim inst. was logged..... And to be honest, if it was logged any different, it would be his problem, not the OP's.
 
Blip16 said:
how could he log it as PIC, but isn't rated for the flight?

if the training was not for a cert/rating, then i don't think you need to sign his book (i could be wrong, i am tired and didn't look it up first)
Click to expand...

mshunter said:
It could have been VFR, and no inst./sim inst. was logged..... And to be honest, if it was logged any different, it would be his problem, not the OP's.
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It wouldn't matter it he was the sole manipulator and was rated for the a/c.

Here we go again...
 
element94 said:
Guess I'll have to coax him into letting me sign that entry next time we go flying. Short of stealing his logbook and doing it myself, I'm not sure really how else to do it to ensure compliance with 61.189(a).

Thanks for the help guys.
Click to expand...

Personally, there wouldn't be a "next time" if he insisted on keeping my signature out of his logbook. This is a cut and dry responsibility for dual given.
 
gotWXdagain said:
Well from what you've described its pretty clear you were required to be there and he doesn't yet have the privileges for what he's doing, and as you were giving flight instruction, you need to sign his logbook as such.
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It doesn't matter, I have received dual given where the instructor needed to be there and I would have died without him or her there, but I didn't put it in the log book. I've also done flights with the instructor that were dual given, but he didn't sign the log book, hell, didn't even fill out his own log book probably. Show me in the FARs where it says that you must sign a students log book to write something in your logbook? or that he must have your endorsement if you were required to be there?

Blip16 said:
how could he log it as PIC, but isn't rated for the flight?

if the training was not for a cert/rating, then i don't think you need to sign his book (i could be wrong, i am tired and didn't look it up first)
Click to expand...

MUST NOT TYPE RESPONSE...

Codyjp said:
It wouldn't matter it he was the sole manipulator and was rated for the a/c.

Here we go again...
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Ahhh, Thank you Codyjp

Nihon_Ni said:
Personally, there wouldn't be a "next time" if he insisted on keeping my signature out of his logbook. This is a cut and dry responsibility for dual given.
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Says who?
 
nosehair said:
Yes, you can log the flight time, in accordance with FAR 61.51(e)(3).

61.189(a) says you must sign the logbook of each person to whom you have given flight or ground training, so you are violating that rule, but you are still legal to log dual given, since you actually did.

***

Same thing with the CFI not signing the student's logbook - you're violating 61.189(a), but you are still in compliance with 61.51(e)(3).
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That's where the issue lies. I have heard the following argument:
  • 61.189(a) requires the CFI to endorse the "student's" logbook fro training given
  • 61.51(h) requires training to be endorsed to count as training received
  • Since without the endorsement there is no training received, there is also no training given and the CFI may not log the time as PIC under 61.51(e)(3)
 
I know how you can log pic w/o ratings, but the op is a little vague in his answer "he want me to file and go somewhere at night" that cold mean ifr it could also mean night xc for a student pilot, in which case he def can't log pic, and training would be for a rating so it should be logged imho.

But I could be reading too far into it
 
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