Drunk and asleep on the job, ATC pushed to limit

Boris Badenov said:
But throwing a grenade in to the room and expecting it to just sort of somehow "all work out" is lunacy. Just defunding a critical part of the nation's infrastructure and chanting "do more with less!" isn't reform, it's a blueprint for disaster.

As we are seeing with the ATC system.
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sounds like some namby pamby woke nonsense, move fast and break things, creative destruction!
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well, I mean, full disclosure. I'm sort of sympathetic to the *notion* of reducing waste and bureaucracy in the Federal System (or whatever). It's not like we haven't seen what happens when totally unaccountable Government runs wild, and it can be not just annoying, but bankrupting. And, perhaps more importantly, it can also become a sort of entrenched, Mandarin, repressive, self-perpetuating nightmare.

But we aren't there.

I'm 100% in favor of rational reform of the Civil Service, and I actually agree with the Loons *in the abstract*, in that I do agree that without a careful, rapacious eye on just exactly what they're up to, entrenched bureaucracies can become wasteful to the degree that it threatens the social order, etc. Don't have to look too far to see examples of this happening.

But throwing a grenade in to the room and expecting it to just sort of somehow "all work out" is lunacy. Just defunding a critical part of the nation's infrastructure and chanting "do more with less!" isn't reform, it's a blueprint for disaster.

As we are seeing with the ATC system.
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Nope. The people administrating the system are not elected officials, they're bureaucrats and the more money that's funneled toward the ATC issue the wealthier they'll become. Your elected officials are supposed to monitor and supervise these folks but we've all seen how our electorate somehow manage to become very wealthy after their appointment. Where does that money come from? Pretend to spend $100B to fix it and @NovemberEcho won't see a cent or more importantly an increase in his quality of life. It's not a biden or trump thing for me, it's the bureaucrats (they're like parasites) and the lobbyists that are destroying everything you want for your children. People ask why I never had kids...
 
Roger Roger said:
Reading the headline and not the article is practically our national sport
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I read the article. The first 4 paragraphs are dedicated to supporting what’s in the title.

ATC is overworked, therefore, they get high and drunk on the job. It’s a bad title and the 5 incidents they talk about have nothing to do with being overworked. It takes away from the real issue at hand.
 
nabbyfan said:
The agency needs to hire more people, and stop getting away with blatantly lying about how bad the staffing really is. The higher ups routinely deny staffing triggers because they don’t want to admit that there are not enough controllers to safely run the operation. They’ll do almost anything to avoid having to cite staffing as an issue. Well, anything besides hire enough people.

Shifts are routinely heavily staffed with OT, which is a controller being scheduled on their day off. It’s not uncommon for a shift to have a negotiated fully staffed number of 10, with 8 controllers actually scheduled, with 4 of those being people on OT. When 3 of those people don’t come to work because theyre exhausted or have things in their life going on that can’t all be handled on one day off, you now have 5 controllers on duty for a shift that was supposed to have 10. The FAA will say that’s a sick leave issue, not a staffing issue. Which again, is not honestly addressing the problem.


I didn’t sign up to work 6 day weeks forever so some jackass in HQ that hasn’t talked to an airplane in 15 years can get a bonus for running a skeleton operation across the country. Nothing can be fixed until they actually recognize and admit that we need more people, and we needed them 5-6 years ago. It’s to a point now where the staffing is so bad that it is difficult to train new controllers because we can’t afford to pull someone off the operation to train.

There’s far too many middle managers and union people in the FAA that took a promotion or detail off the boards because they didn’t want to work traffic or work this schedule. Send all of those people back to the operation until those of us that have the nerve to demand 2 days off a week, can get it.
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I don't remember the year exactly but (I believe it was Japan Airlines) the CEO, certainly with other resources personally, voluntarily reduced his salary to a buck annually rather than laying people off. I'd never see that before.

My "model" is watching the bosses get raises (often voted on by themselves in County government) while the folk who did the actual daily work got to enjoy forced OT and long-delayed contractual negotiations, with increased stress as once-filled positions went unfunded. Couldn't strike because of the Taft-Hartley Act but most of us wouldn't have, anyway, because of public safety.

I'm no fan of politicians. They may get into the game "to make a difference," but it doesn't take long for many/most of them to forget the constituents they represent and work mostly for reelection and their own future.

It may have always been so, or I just became jaded experiencing things at a more personal level, but I have grown tired of seeing elected/appointed officials who benefit personally at the the cost of public safety and those who do the real work at a real cost, from police to fire through EMS, and including ATC.

I have no answer to fix the problem but I can see the problem is there.

Is it the Academy for ATC? Maybe - you all would know better than I. Would a push to expand class size help? By a few perhaps, each year, and in three years maybe that would add a dozen or so to the mix. The solution might be long in coming, but it could come and provide, slowly, some relief from forced OT and the long work hours that dull senses, compromise safety, and rob years of life from people who faithfully do their best on the job.

"No money," the elected appointed official might say? My answer would be, "Drop 5 or 10 grand off your salary" instead of piling more crap on the folks who actually do the job and are responsible for the safety of the traveling public
 
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NovemberEcho said:
The limiting factor for class size at the moment anyway is the number of simulators.
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Forgive the impertinence from one inexperienced in the field; still, if Administrators didn't receive an annual or biannual raise, or even tri-annual, could not another simulator or two be purchased to help forgo the issue? No idea what a simulator might cost but have to guess it's a pittance in the overall national budget.

Yep, inflation and so forth, but I've got to get by on what I get with no or very limited increase. Can't tell me that someone with a (nearly) six figure income can't do the same.

I worry more about the guy/gal in the trenches working tired and without adequate rest than I do the suits/ties who oversee the operation from a distance so to speak
 
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The academy is a huge logjam, and IMO is not necessary for enroute. You spend the first month and a half learning old school non radar that nobody outside of 1-2 facilities will use in the real world. Then another month or so learning a fictional version of some airspace over Jackson MS.

Skip it, send us kids with an aviation background direct to the facility, and let us train them. The Centers all have training programs designed to get people from 0 experience to CPC, the class in Oklahoma does very little to help that.

But again, the root of the issue is that we do not have enough people, and nobody within the FAA really seems to care. They’ve clearly made the choice that it’s fine to “run it until the wheels fall off” with forced OT for the front line employees.

This used to be a job people would kill for. Now, trainees and even CPCs are straight quitting. You can make controller money in alot of different ways that don’t include the worlds worst schedule for your health, 6 days a week, and people are realizing that. Well, everybody besides the FAA is.
 
Bob Ridpath said:
I don't remember the year exactly but (I believe it was Japan Airlines) the CEO, certainly with other resources personally, voluntarily reduced his salary to a buck annually rather than laying people off. I'd never see that before.
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CEOs who do that do it as a publicity stunt—most of their compensation is either deferred compensation, stock grants, options, or other packages. Their salary is typically a negligible percentage of their overall compensation.

Bob Ridpath said:
My "model" is watching the bosses get raises (often voted on by themselves in County government) while the folk who did the actual daily work got to enjoy forced OT and long-delayed contractual negotiations, with increased stress as once-filled positions went unfunded.
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Identical to the private sector.

Bob Ridpath said:
I'm no fan of politicians. They may get into the game "to make a difference," but it doesn't take long for many/most of them to forget the constituents they represent and work mostly for reelection and their own future.
Click to expand...

To be honest, that's common in all trades.

Bob Ridpath said:
It may have always been so, or I just became jaded experiencing things at a more personal level, but I have grown tired of seeing elected/appointed officials who benefit personally at the the cost of public safety and those who do the real work at a real cost, from police to fire through EMS, and including ATC.

I have no answer to fix the problem but I can see the problem is there.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to say other countries have solved it, but countries like Sweden tend to behave much more cleanly. We would like to assume that the private sector has less grift than the public sector, but the reality is that everywhere is pretty gross where money is involved.

Bob Ridpath said:
Is it the Academy for ATC? Maybe - you all would know better than I. Would a push to expand class size help? By a few perhaps, each year, and in three years maybe that would add a dozen or so to the mix. The solution might be long in coming, but it could come and provide, slowly, some relief from forced OT and the long work hours that dull senses, compromise safety, and rob years of life from people who faithfully do their best on the job.
Click to expand...

There are a number of problems, but the biggest one is that people don't want to fund infrastructure because it's not sexy and doesn't make a profit. I see people clamoring to close parks and other recreational amenities "because they've never turned a profit." Parks FFS.

Spending $126mm to retrofit a bridge feels like money that's just "thrown away." The bridge hasn't collapsed yet, after all. The bridge has always been there.

Until the bridge collapses, everyone is going to yell and scream about any money spent on it. As soon as it collapses, "They ought to have done something."

Private industry is exactly the same.


Bob Ridpath said:
"No money," the elected appointed official might say? My answer would be, "Drop 5 or 10 grand off your salary" instead of piling more crap on the folks who actually do the job and are responsible for the safety of the traveling public
Click to expand...

It's not that simple. Things cost a lot more than they used to. The value of a dollar is not constant, and pretty much everybody outside of the top earners needs to be paid more.

What needs to happen is a flattening of the economic strata, an abandonment of classes, and an enforcement of fanatical egalitarianism across the board. In short: Burn the patriarchy, overthrow capitalism, and install a beautiful socialist utopia.

Or at the very least, put some focused effort into listening to the controllers who are actually working traffic and do what they say. Survey the front lines, survey the trainers, and the trainees, and use that data to figure out a way to approach the problem. Obviously management isn't working.
 
nabbyfan said:
The academy is a huge logjam, and IMO is not necessary for enroute. You spend the first month and a half learning old school non radar that nobody outside of 1-2 facilities will use in the real world. Then another month or so learning a fictional version of some airspace over Jackson MS.

Skip it, send us kids with an aviation background direct to the facility, and let us train them. The Centers all have training programs designed to get people from 0 experience to CPC, the class in Oklahoma does very little to help that.

But again, the root of the issue is that we do not have enough people, and nobody within the FAA really seems to care. They’ve clearly made the choice that it’s fine to “run it until the wheels fall off” with forced OT for the front line employees.

This used to be a job people would kill for. Now, trainees and even CPCs are straight quitting. You can make controller money in alot of different ways that don’t include the worlds worst schedule for your health, 6 days a week, and people are realizing that. Well, everybody besides the FAA is.
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But don't you know? When $BOOMER was 18, he made 5¢ an hour and paid for his private pilot license. It's ABSURD that people can't survive in major metropolitan areas on $90k!

(You have to follow that to its logical conclusion for the comment to be responsive to yours, but I promise it is.)

(By the way, I think you worked me the other day, maybe?)
 
Acrofox said:
CEOs who do that do it as a publicity stunt—most of their compensation is either deferred compensation, stock grants, options, or other packages. Their salary is typically a negligible percentage of their overall compensation.



Identical to the private sector.



To be honest, that's common in all trades.



I'm not going to say other countries have solved it, but countries like Sweden tend to behave much more cleanly. We would like to assume that the private sector has less grift than the public sector, but the reality is that everywhere is pretty gross where money is involved.



There are a number of problems, but the biggest one is that people don't want to fund infrastructure because it's not sexy and doesn't make a profit. I see people clamoring to close parks and other recreational amenities "because they've never turned a profit." Parks FFS.

Spending $126mm to retrofit a bridge feels like money that's just "thrown away." The bridge hasn't collapsed yet, after all. The bridge has always been there.

Until the bridge collapses, everyone is going to yell and scream about any money spent on it. As soon as it collapses, "They ought to have done something."

Private industry is exactly the same.




It's not that simple. Things cost a lot more than they used to. The value of a dollar is not constant, and pretty much everybody outside of the top earners needs to be paid more.

What needs to happen is a flattening of the economic strata, an abandonment of classes, and an enforcement of fanatical egalitarianism across the board. In short: Burn the patriarchy, overthrow capitalism, and install a beautiful socialist utopia.

Or at the very least, put some focused effort into listening to the controllers who are actually working traffic and do what they say. Survey the front lines, survey the trainers, and the trainees, and use that data to figure out a way to approach the problem. Obviously management isn't working.
Click to expand...
exactly, private companies do the exact same thing. Worse even, because the disparity between executive compensation and frontline is far worse in the private world. And when • starts falling apart, instead of listening to the people doing the work who know what needs to be fixed, they’ll spend $$$$ on CONsultants who will tell them anything EXCEPT what actually needs to happen, which 99% of the time is “increase the compensation until you can adequately staff the operation with people who aren’t dip•s”

Oh and in the private world it’s often intentional because “line only go up line no go down shareholder value go brrr”
 
I guess what I’m saying is, the problem is exact opposite of “government isn’t run enough like a business!”
 
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So this article doesn't cite any specifics when it comes to the drunk part, no testimonials at all. Aside from the 1 or 2 very public instances over the last few years, I have never heard of this. It is extremely rare, probably more so then when you hear of a crew member showing up to the gate inebriated. I suspect the info came from FOIA requests of the waste fraud and abuse hotline, which is famous for it's use in wreaking havoc and score settling. The complaints themselves are not evidence of wrongdoing.
 
We had a guy in LGA pop a random breathalyzer a couple years ago. Don’t know if he was drinking on the job or just should have banged in from the night before.
 
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