Dropped Lycoming TIO-540, now what?

gotWXdagain said:
Engines routinely experience 200G impact forces during shipment?
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Based on your calculations, yes, I have seen several items fall from heights of about 4ft or more. You need to go to a UPS processing plant on a weekly night to observe the minimum wage loaders doing what they do best.
 
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Vector said:
Based on your calculations, yes, I have seen several items fall from heights of about 4ft or more. You need to go to a UPS processing plant on a weekly night to observe the minimum wage loaders doing what they do best.
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Are minimum wage workers dropping an engine putting the entire weight on less than a square inch of aluminum, or are they tossing packages that not only have crush zones, they distribute the forces on surface areas at least 2 orders of magnitude greater. I agree with ATN, a monumentally stupid suggestion and comparison in your original post.
 
Vector said:
How exactly were you able to ascertain/measure the 200G?
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Use this link: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/flobi.html

Approximate dry weight of the engine in question is 199kg. Height is 1.67m (about 5.5'), Velocity at impact is about 5.72 m/s. Kinetic Energy using the formula KE (Joules) = (mass/2) x velocity^2 shows Kinetic Energy at impact of 3256.8 Joules.

Although to get 200G's as was my previous post, following the website's form it looks like I put in incorrect data, because I misread "distance travelled after impact" as just "distance travelled" and input 1.67.

Now, we know the engine did not immediately stop on impact but bounced and rotated, this was a very hard impact. Just for a ballpark figure I will input .01 in "distance travelled post-impact." We know that the engine didn't travel further into the floor post-impact but instead stopped suddenly. The result of the formula is an impact force of 325683N. My 200g figure was based on another error where I divided force by gravitational constant(last physics class was ten years ago... oops). The accurate figure is force divided by weight, which equals acceleration. That figure divided by the gravitational constant (9.8) equals G's.

So, 325683/199 = 1636.6m/s^2/9.8 m/s^2 = 167g's. That force was absorbed mostly by the #2 cylinder breaking off, however in order to cause the engine to roll over during the impact sequence, a large amount of force would have been transmitted through the crank case shell itself as well as through the pushrods on the cylinder to the camshaft and therefore the crankshaft. How much damage is there to the crankshaft? Who knows? Even the very slightest misalignment will cause it to detune maybe 100 hours down the line. It is very likely there are hairline cracks and deformations on the crank case at the #2 cylinder fitting. If the crank case is made of two pieces of metal bolted together, there is likely metallurgical damage along the edges where the two pieces meet.

If it was my airplane I would demand a replacement engine fresh from overhaul and be done with it.
 
[QUOTE If it was my airplane I would demand a replacement engine fresh from overhaul and be done with it.[/QUOTE]

If I was just the pilot I would not fly it with only a repair to the damaged engine.
Plus I would be looking out for the owners interest, whether I owned it or someone else.
If I was looking to buy an aircraft that had a fresh overhauled engine but before it was ever flown it had extensive repairs, I would not purchase it unless it came with another fresh total overhaul.
Every Lycoming and Continental engine I had inspected for a prop strike had a crankshaft gear that would not pass inspection.
 
gotWXdagain said:
Now, we know the engine did not immediately stop on impact but bounced and rotated, this was a very hard impact. Just for a ballpark figure I will input .01 in "distance travelled post-impact." We know that the engine didn't travel further into the floor post-impact but instead stopped suddenly. The result of the formula is an impact force of 325683N. My 200g figure was based on another error where I divided force by gravitational constant(last physics class was ten years ago... oops). The accurate figure is force divided by weight, which equals acceleration. That figure divided by the gravitational constant (9.8) equals G's.
So, 325683/199 = 1636.6m/s^2/9.8 m/s^2 = 167g's.
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I usually land about that hard, but I fly a beech product with brand new seat cushions.
 
darrenf said:
Are minimum wage workers dropping an engine putting the entire weight on less than a square inch of aluminum, or are they tossing packages that not only have crush zones, they distribute the forces on surface areas at least 2 orders of magnitude greater. I agree with ATN, a monumentally stupid suggestion and comparison in your original post.
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Whatever, who cares about your opinion? You have yours and I have mine. Keep your crap to yourself.
 
Everyone has an opinion on almost everything.
It doesn't mean one is more right or more wrong, just that we have different opinions.
I fail to see why things have to get get nasty over a difference of opinion.
You children play nice or I'm going to send you to bed without your supper!
 
milleR said:
Common sense and high school physics.
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No one here has even seen the extent of the damage. We are all going by the OP's description but you so called "aviation experts" have it figured out.

There appears to be no damage or impact to the case itself. The jugs seem to have taken the impact hence my suggestion. If he doesn't want the engine, I will take it and replace damaged component and be in the air. If there was no impact to the crank shaft then chances are that the engine case halves did not warp due to impact.
 
Vector said:
No one here has even seen the extent of the damage. We are all going by the OP's description but you so called "aviation experts" have it figured out.

There appears to be no damage or impact to the case itself. The jugs seem to have taken the impact hence my suggestion. If he doesn't want the engine, I will take it and replace damaged component and be in the air. If there was no impact to the crank shaft then chances are that the engine case halves did not warp due to impact.
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So tossing boxes for UPS in high school makes you more of an "expert" in this field?

What, exactly, is your background in aviation in general and aviation piston engine maintenance in particular? Let's see your "creds" that "qualify you to make such a statement."
 
Vector said:
No one here has even seen the extent of the damage. We are all going by the OP's description but you so called "aviation experts" have it figured out.

There appears to be no damage or impact to the case itself. The jugs seem to have taken the impact hence my suggestion. If he doesn't want the engine, I will take it and replace damaged component and be in the air. If there was no impact to the crank shaft then chances are that the engine case halves did not warp due to impact.
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So, by the tone of your voice, we are not aviation experts? Interesting. A&P, 10K hours, Engineering degree.

Got it.
 
Let's take the whole physics/engineering issue out of the equation for a second. I recently had a new engine installed in my 210. If I learned that it had been dropped requiring a jug and associated components to be replaced I would consider it a "repaired" engine, not the new (or reman/overhauled) engine I paid for. I expect to get what I paid for, and that is not a "repaired" engine. Regardless of what underlying damage there may or may not be, this isn't the engine the owner paid for any longer.
 
Vector said:
No one here has even seen the extent of the damage. We are all going by the OP's description but you so called "aviation experts" have it figured out.

There appears to be no damage or impact to the case itself. The jugs seem to have taken the impact hence my suggestion. If he doesn't want the engine, I will take it and replace damaged component and be in the air. If there was no impact to the crank shaft then chances are that the engine case halves did not warp due to impact.
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The key words are "appears to be."
 
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