Double checkride failure.

USMCmech

USMCmech

Well-Known Member
I have a PPL student who just failed his retest.

I am baffled by this because he never got past the oral exam both times. I belived he was ready the first time, and really made sure that he was ready for the retake. I had two other CFIs test him as well and they both said he was ready. However the examiner told me that he couldn't answer even some basic questions about airspace, weight and ballance, and WX. All things that I made sure he knew before I recomended him for his retest.

I am at a loss to explaine the difference between the student that I know and the description the the examiner gave me.

The examiner is a very experianced guy who has been doing this for a couple of decades, and has a very good reputation around the area.

I chalked up the first failure to "Checkrideitis", but don't know what to think about it now. This is my first experiance with a student failure. Does anyone have any ideas about what to do about this?

I honestly feel he has the knowledge, judgement, and flying skill to be a private pilot. I would have no problem letting him take my son flying on a local flight. I just don't understand what is different for him durring the checkride.
 
What did the student say about this experience? Did he think it was his nerves? Has he had cases of extreme test anxiety before, in other areas of life? If so, what does he think might help?

Don's suggestion about using a different examiner is all I know of as well. It sounds like you did everything correctly as far as retraining him and making sure he was ready. Maybe by getting his input we could come up with more suggestions.
 
Bust out the Oral Test Prep book from ASA and drill him mercilously, until he recites this crap in his sleep. That and use a different examiner maybe, do a simulated checkride or two with him as well. Just my $0.02
 
USMCmech said:
I have a PPL student who just failed his retest.

I am baffled by this because he never got past the oral exam both times. I belived he was ready the first time, and really made sure that he was ready for the retake. I had two other CFIs test him as well and they both said he was ready. However the examiner told me that he couldn't answer even some basic questions about airspace, weight and ballance, and WX. All things that I made sure he knew before I recomended him for his retest.

I am at a loss to explaine the difference between the student that I know and the description the the examiner gave me.

The examiner is a very experianced guy who has been doing this for a couple of decades, and has a very good reputation around the area.

I chalked up the first failure to "Checkrideitis", but don't know what to think about it now. This is my first experiance with a student failure. Does anyone have any ideas about what to do about this?

I honestly feel he has the knowledge, judgement, and flying skill to be a private pilot. I would have no problem letting him take my son flying on a local flight. I just don't understand what is different for him durring the checkride.
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Hello? Have you called the examiner and asked him?

They are people you know. You can ask him what you need to change.
 
USMCmech said:
I am at a loss to explaine the difference between the student that I know and the description the the examiner gave me.
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:sitaware: Come on Tenney, you're better than that!
 
I'm betting that he has a very intense test phobia. Have you read the book "The Savy Flight Instructor?" In the book he describes the exact same situation. A CFI student wasn't able to do a simple weight and balance on a checkride. He had a discussion with the students parents and found that he had such bad anxiety about tests that he barely was able to graduate high school. It seemed that the problem for him was the hours leading up to the checkride. He would fret and fret and then not be able to sleep and come into the checkride a nervous wreck. The instructor called up the examiner to talk to him about the situation. They decided to schedule the checkride and not tell him about it. They decided that the examiner would be in the airport diner the following week. The instructor and the student would show up and just happen to see him. The examiner would then say "hey I've got a cancellation today, what do you say we get that oral done." They did it and it worked.

I'm not sure if this would work for your student. I know that I failed my first couple checkrides because I was so nervous about them. I would get flustered and do something stupid in the airplane. Things like giving the wrong location to the control tower. Then I busted my instrument for not noticing a nav flag on my partial panel approach (it wasn't simulated, the instrument decided to stop working right then.)

I finally realized after reading a pretty informative book, that examiners are mostly looking for commandability. If you're safe and in charge and exhibit a leadership attitude you'll pass even if you flub up a couple of maneuvers.
 
I was also fortunate to bust two checkrides. I think one of the things that I used to get over them was to thing it wasnt the end of the world and these things do happen. Find another examiner is also a good option. Have a meeting with the examiner and the student. Its really tuff to bust checkrides back to back....but hey not quitting is what shows that no matter what happens your going to get this rating done. Practice...Practice...and more Practice. Best of luck. He will get it next time.
 
caliginousface said:
what'd the student say about it all?
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That's the thing, when I ask him what he told the examiner, he tells me the right answer.

Example: W&B I had him do several W&Bs because he got triped up durring his first checkride. Every time he did just fine. Several times I purposely overloaded the plane to see if he will catch it. Every time he did. We discussed what to do if the plane is too heavy, offload, defuel, ect.

The student told me that he did the W&B and saw that it would be overwieght, and told the examiner so.

The examiner told me that he did NOT realize that the plane was overgross and had to ask three times and eventually show the student in the POH what max gross was.

I'm getting two completely different stories. I'm not inclined to doubt the examiner, yet what he is telling me dosen't make sense either.
 
The student told me that he did the W&B and saw that it would be overwieght, and told the examiner so.

The examiner told me that he did NOT realize that the plane was overgross and had to ask three times and eventually show the student in the POH what max gross was.
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This sounds like an examiner wanting the student to use correct terminology. Overweight as in how? Max ramp load, max gross takeoff weight, etc.

Just throwing that out there as there is probably more to the story and I'm well off base.
 
Windchill said:
:sitaware: Come on Tenney, you're better than that!
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LOL ok sorry - well then ask the examiner for advice - "what should I do with this student?"

Most of them are good guys (and gals)
 
Well, here's what I did.

I asked around about this particular examiner and got a lukewarm reputation about the guy. Nothing terrible, just not everybody's first choice.

I asked my student if he would like to change CFIs which is his perogative. If he thought another CFI would better prepare him then he always has that right. He said that would like to finish up with me.

I called another examiner which many other CFIs said was their first choice and breifed him about the situation and my intentiono to send my student to him in a couple of weeks.

Now we will go over the ground lessons thouroghly for the next week or so. I'll have him do plenty of W&Bs in new and more complex aircraft (anybody got a C-208 W&B chart I can copy?).

Mainly I need to work on his delivery he is very softspoken and sometimes unsure of how to answer the question the examiner is asking. Not because he dosen't know the information, but because he dosen't understand the question. Then I'll do a couple of more flights and sign nim up again. While documenting every minute of ground training incase the FAA comes calling.
 
As suggested before, I would also sit in on the next checkride, as long as the stud has no problems with this. After getting the different stories it would definitely pay to see what's happening.

BTW, it sounds like you are doing everything fair and possible to help your stud...great job!!!
 
I have had students who suffer from being soft spoken as well. To some this is a sign of lack of knowledge. I knew the students knew the stuff, they knew they knew it but the DE didn't know because it was their first meeting.

Now I not only teach all the information, I also try to emphasize the PIC mentality. From early on in their training I make it a point to have them be the decision maker and authority figure (under my close supervision of course :cool: . I have found this helps them be more authoritative with ATC, with other CFIs they fly with and with DEs. If the DE doesn't think the student knows what they should they will find a way to bust the ride (oral or flight). I remember my CFI telling me before my first checkride that it is an overall impression that the DE is making of the pilot. I have been stumped by something on every single oral I have taken but never failed one--not that I want to try with this one though.

It sounds like you have prepared this student very well. It would be interesting to sit in on the next one though if everyone approves.
 
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