Don't try this at home

Tbone

New Member
Don\'t try this at home

I am a CFI in Alaska. Had an interesting experience today, thought I would share. I fly at Merrill field in downtown Anchorage, which is a stones throw from Elmendorf Air Force base. Cheney was in town this afternoon, which led to a TFR around the base. Due to our close proximity, it limited landings to runway 33, takeoffs on 15. Although I knew about the TFR, I didn't realize I wouldn't be able to land on our normal 06/24.

Long story short, I returned from a x-c with a student, and was cleared to land rwy 33, with winds out of 160 @ 16, gusting to 19. I had 2600 feet of available runway, and was in a 172. I had never before encountered so much direct tailwind on landing, and wasn't 100 percent sure of the best way to approach it or if I even should. I decided to proceed and carry an extra 5-10 knots of airspeed, with 20 degrees of flaps. Initially I figured I would do a go-around if it wasn't looking good, but on short final it occurred to me that I could violate the TFR if I didn't turn immediately upon executing the go.

I continued with the landing, even though we were cooking across the threshold at 70 KIAS. (I dont' even want to think about our groundspeed). I hovered above the runway for a good 1200 before touchdown. I basically had to wrestle the mains down to the pavement, at which point I exectued max breaking technique. We pretty much used all the available runway, but made an otherwise safe landing.

I would not attempt this landing again. In retrospect, I should have diverted to an alternate, and waited for the TFR to expire. It was a bad judgement call on my part. Once I realized my go-around attempt might violate the TFR, I should have aborted the landing. I tried to turn it into a learning experience for my student, I know it was for me.

My question is, has anyone experienced something similar, and is there a recommended technique for landing with a significant tailwind? I just used my knowledge of LLWS for my approach. Thanks for reading...
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

Another example of a TFR getting in the way of safety. Would've been interesting if you'd requested the opposite runway for safety and seen what the response would've been.
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

Pretty sure AOPA is collecting TFR stories. That would be a good one to add some ammunition to their arguments.

As a general rule regarding tailwind landings, the biggest difference that a tailwind makes is to increase your groundspeed, so treat the landing kind of like a short field landing. Higher groundspeed = shorter effective runway. Use your typical short field approach speed (adding for the gust factor if necessary) and typical flap settings (unless the crosswind component is high). Then be very, very careful in the touchdown and rollout phase because your groundspeed is so much higher than normal. Steering can be very twitchy at the higher speeds and good alignment upon touchdown is very important as well. Be ready for an immediate go-around if things start to go sour (and don't worry about no stinking TFR if you do). Remember that as you slow down you will need to hold the proper flight control corrections for the wind coming over the tail.

Take a look back at your POH and set some personal limits for tailwind landings (just like you do with crosswinds) for future encounters.
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

Glad you made it on the ground safely. Personally, I would be less concerned with busting the TFR and more concerned with safety. I'm sure the DoHS would love a headline that read "Two Pilots Die in Crash, but TFR Averted." Not saying you would've died, just making an extreme point.
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty sure AOPA is collecting TFR stories. That would be a good one to add some ammunition to their arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto on that. You should send in a NASA form too. Be nice to convince that powers-that-be that the TFRs are going to get someone killed before they actually get someone killed.

MF
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

Great job getting that thing on the ground. I second or third everyone's comments about filing a NASA report and a report with AOPA.

I also agree with the comments that if it comes down to flying safely or breaking a TFR, break the TFR. I'd rather break one of those than break a bone or two or an airplane!

Oh, yeah, I'm bored, so I just pulled out the C172 POH. It says that you decrease your landing distance by 10 percent for every five knots of headwind. I guess that means if you've got a five knot tailwind to increase the landing distance by the same amount?

Wow! Great job getting her down, buddy!
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

The increase in landing distance for a tailwind is actually much greater than the decrease for a headwind, Tony ... some charts publish an actual number, but some don't. The effect is NOT linear.

Agree, submit this one to AOPA and the ASRS program and file it away in your "I learned from that" file.
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

[ QUOTE ]
The increase in landing distance for a tailwind is actually much greater than the decrease for a headwind, Tony ... some charts publish an actual number, but some don't. The effect is NOT linear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, Doug, I learned something from the website!

I had no idea.

It's been a while since I landed with a tail wind and I think it was less than five knots when I did it.
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

Just took a quick look through some POH's. A couple had charts for up to 10 knots tailwind, and some of them showed the increase in landing distance, but only up to 10 knots. I think I saw typical numbers of 500 feet added to a Bonanza landing distance at 10 knots of tailwind. A 152 chart had a note saying add 10% for every 2 knots up to 10 knots of tailwind (that would total a 50% increase in landing distance for a 10 knot tailwind!).

I didn't see any charts or notes for anything over 10 knots of tailwind. That alone should tell us something.
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

along with others, I think that the wisest thing would have to go somewhere else. THAT said, if there was no other alternative, you could have treated it like a short field approach (cuz, in a sense.. it WAS). that woulda meant approaching at about 59 or 60 KIAS, instead of 70!!! and, for gosh sakes.. FULL flaps. 0-20 adds lift, 20-40 makes for good drag
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Re: Don\'t try this at home

When I was finishing up my private my instructor and I went out and did quite a few tailwind landings. They aren't that bad if you are expecting it, but if you flew into a field without automated weather or a sock it would be really easy to get yourself into trouble.
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

But there are other ways to scope the wind ... anyone want to list a few?

I'll start:

1) Flags (duh)
grin.gif

2) Dust plumes/chimney plumes
3) Lakes/water
4) large trees
5) Cloud shadows (not incredibly great for surface winds but it'll give a very rough indication)
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

I get the last three but not the first one ... care to explain?
grin.gif
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cows...

[/ QUOTE ]I get the last three but not the first one ... care to explain?
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
If you can you smell 'em or not will tell you if you're up or down wind.
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<j/k>
 
Re: Don\'t try this at home

Thanks for the great posts! No question I should have gone somewhere else and waited it out. I'll be transitioning to bush flying this summer, so I'm sure I'll encounter something similar at some point. I definitely would have gone around if it came to it, and busted the TFR. Glad it didn't come to that, violating a TFR over an air force base where the VP is hanging out wouldn't have been fun!

But at the time, it was one more thing to think about on final, and probably clouded my judgement some. And yes, based on my "test pilot" experience, a strong tailwind will definitely give you more ground roll than the same head wind will slow you down.

I will submit my story to AOPA and the NASA report, thanks for the suggestion!
 
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