Don't spin a Citation

TwoTwoLeft said:
Ha! Yeah, it's really fascinating how fast things can go bad in something so slow!
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well that is the difference between flying something that can save you from yourself, and something that will not, right? I think we have had a generation of airplanes that suffer ham fisted clowns like myself more than any other point in history. If I hopped into a dual flight with my grandfather (19'teens bush pilot, 20's mexico money runner, jennys to early USAF jets type), I'm pretty sure he would tell me to find another line of work :) My old man already laughed at me all the way down the runway as I bounced his 'bo from the 1000 foot markers to the runway exit at PDX a number of years ago ("stick to jets kid")
 
Flightnerd said:
What stood out to me was as the jet was rolling, "The pilot was unable to interpret the PFD attitude indicator, which he described as presenting
information that he could not recall having seen before" He had training in the jet, doesn't FlightSafety or whoever he did it with show unusual attitudes in the sim?
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When I got typed in the King Air 350 at FlightSafety they did not show the avionics declutter mode that pops up at greater than 63* of bank. Their idea of "unusual attitudes" was 45 degrees of bank and 30 degrees of pitch.

When I asked them for more, their response was, "it is against the FARs to go beyond those angles, and plus our sim is not modeled to go to more extreme angles."

I still think that's ridiculous for a number of reasons, but that's how they view it.
 
Hacker15e said:
When I got typed in the King Air 350 at FlightSafety they did not show the avionics declutter mode that pops up at greater than 63* of bank. Their idea of "unusual attitudes" was 45 degrees of bank and 30 degrees of pitch.

When I asked them for more, their response was, "it is against the FARs to go beyond those angles, and plus our sim is not modeled to go to more extreme angles."

I still think that's ridiculous for a number of reasons, but that's how they view it.
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Which FSI were you at? I ask because when I did initial in ATL they were adamant that we see that because the Air Force cited not enough instruction about the declutter mode in some upset accident in Afghanistan. I thought it was kind of odd they way it was presented there and it contributed to my mixed opinion of that place.

And when I did my type, I was paired with another pilot for the first two sims where we put each other in unusual attitudes like we normally do in the other types I have flown. I can't remember how they did it after I transitioned to single pilot.
 
jtrain609 said:
Are you actually going to argue that airliners stall and spin in as often as GA aircraft operated by hobbyists? I'm pretty sure there were a few stall/spin accidents in the last month alone with a GA aircraft, against one hull loss due to an American part 121 stalling an aircraft in the last decade.
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Shnike, really?! AA spun an airliner?? Details?
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
Funny, I've flown with a lot of professionals who got their asses handed to them in a Cub....
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Lol, last time I took an airline captain up in a cub, he almost killed us. Not being snarky, but I always want more little airplane time. In my experience, airplanes are like boats; The bigger they get, the easier they are to fly/sail. The little twitchy Laser on an inland lake with crazy clocking winds is the hardest boat I ever sailed. Landing a Cub or a Pitts makes landing a jet seem like child's play.
 
Try navigating a supertanker through the Singapore Straits and tell me small ones are harder!

Of course I'd be embarrassing in light aircraft when I haven't flown one in a while (especially a tail wheel), but that doesn't instantly make me an awful pilot. One of my friends will, however, never let me forget he time I flared his AA5 at 20ft then performed a flawless go around ;)
 
arkflyr said:
Which FSI were you at? I ask because when I did initial in ATL they were adamant that we see that because the Air Force cited not enough instruction about the declutter mode in some upset accident in Afghanistan. I thought it was kind of odd they way it was presented there and it contributed to my mixed opinion of that place.
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I got typed in Atlanta in 2011...and I was in the unit in Afghanistan that had that incident in summer 2011.

The declutter mode was not even discussed in the academics at FSI, much less demonstrated in the sim. A crew in Afghanistan on a combat mission got trapped between a line of pop-up thunderstorms and the Pakistan border and because of the "thou shalt not fly into Pakistan OR ELSE" order for us, they chose to punch through the thunderstorm line instead (yes, a combat ORM issue, but that's another discussion all together). They ended up inverted in an unusual attitude while getting hammered around inside the storm line, and claimed that "the screens went blank", wrongly assuming the airplane had been struck by lightning or something. They subsequently lost a lot of altitude (in a mountainous area) and nearly impacted terrain...and did a whole bunch of damage to the aircraft and engines recovering from the dive.

It was a significant training issue and contributing factor to a near-loss of an aircraft and crew. If FSI is teaching it now, then it is a positive change to their syllabus IMO.
 
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Oh wow, yeah that isn't good.

The whole unusual attitude thing there struck me as odd because it was like they were going out of their way to explain how the system works vs. just explaining it. "We have to show you this because..." Their demeanor about the issue that kinda struck me as different, now it makes some sense. In other airplanes that have a declutter mode like the Falcon EASy which changes a whole lot more we definitely got thorough instruction on what will happen.

The more I think about it the more it kinda of irks me the way they were about it.
 
Hacker15e said:
When I got typed in the King Air 350 at FlightSafety they did not show the avionics declutter mode that pops up at greater than 63* of bank. Their idea of "unusual attitudes" was 45 degrees of bank and 30 degrees of pitch.

When I asked them for more, their response was, "it is against the FARs to go beyond those angles, and plus our sim is not modeled to go to more extreme angles."

I still think that's ridiculous for a number of reasons, but that's how they view it.
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I went to FSI King Air 350i training and they did make a point of showing the PFD declutter during unusual attitudes. This was in 2014.
 
I saw this placard in a Pa-14.It worked for me : I didn't roll it. I didn't spin it.
f1y3gi.jpg
 
Overheard on Yuma Approach about 45 min ago to an incoming Citation:
Approach: will you be able to make it down to 1200 before entering the class D? If not we'll spin ya.
Citation: um... No.

Good way to lose altitude quickly, right? :eek2:
 
KatanaHawk said:
Overheard on Yuma Approach about 45 min ago to an incoming Citation:
Approach: will you be able to make it down to 1200 before entering the class D? If not we'll spin ya.
Citation: um... No.

Good way to lose altitude quickly, right? :eek2:
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I'm not sure if that is standard FAA phraseology, but Yuma I think is USMC control (not positive) but if not, they work with USN and USMC a ton and "spin" in our language means a 360 degree turn, normally for spacing or to gain/lose altitude. You probably knew this, but for anyone else out there who is unfamiliar, that is what it means. I know, I killed the joke :)
 
KatanaHawk said:
Overheard on Yuma Approach about 45 min ago to an incoming Citation:
Approach: will you be able to make it down to 1200 before entering the class D? If not we'll spin ya.
Citation: um... No.
Good way to lose altitude quickly, right? :eek2:
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///AMG said:
I'm not sure if that is standard FAA phraseology, but Yuma I think is USMC control (not positive) but if not, they work with USN and USMC a ton and "spin" in our language means a 360 degree turn, normally for spacing or to gain/lose altitude. You probably knew this, but for anyone else out there who is unfamiliar, that is what it means. I know, I killed the joke :)
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USMC RATCF, and yeah, have to be at 1200' prior to 5 miles or entering the Class D, in order to get separation below the overhead pattern traffic.
 
///AMG said:
..."spin" in our language means a 360 degree turn, normally for spacing or to gain/lose altitude...
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Didn't actually know that, but I figured as much :) Still I found the "spin" call funny considering I had read through this thread before the flight.

MikeD said:
USMC RATCF, and yeah, have to be at 1200' prior to 5 miles or entering the Class D, in order to get separation below the overhead pattern traffic.
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They had a C-130 practicing traffic patterns at 1700 (really cool to see), so that 1200 restriction made a lot of sense.
 
KatanaHawk said:
They had a C-130 practicing traffic patterns at 1700 (really cool to see), so that 1200 restriction made a lot of sense.
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Yeah, the overhead is at 1500 AGL for the 3/21s, and the civilian pattern the standard 1000 AGL for 8/26 and 17/35; so it makes sense and works out.
 
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