Don't spin a Citation

Roger Roger said:
Easy hoss. My comment was directed at the double standard where 91 guys who do it are labeled incompetent, but when a big jet crew does it (our flies into a seawall in similar circumstances) they're "victims of a system" and anyone who suggests they were incompetent has "an unjust safety culture".
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It isn't that some big jet crews don't at times exercise poor judgment or incompetence, however it would be hard to argue against the fact that such instances are rarer in the 121 environment.

A quick search of the NTSB accident database proves this point fairly well.
 
Apophis said:
It isn't that some big jet crews don't at times exercise poor judgment or incompetence, however it would be hard to argue against the fact that such instances are rarer in the 121 environment.

A quick search of the NTSB accident database proves this point fairly well.
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Again, not directed at the frequency, just the differing attitudes that accompany the two.
 
JordanD said:
Even some CFIs. I had an older CFI say he was going to follow me in, then say he lost sight of me. Next thing I see he's turning final in front of me at a higher altitude. I let him know he cut me off in a "meh, no biggie, stuff happens" tone and he goes off about how I screw everyone up by flying such a wide pattern, never mind I'm going a good 30 knots faster than he is.

Then I'm putting the plane away and he comes over and explains he was mad because his student was about to solo and I made her go around and she'd never had to do that before. Uhhhh..... Doesn't give me a lot of faith in the training people are getting.
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Oh believe me...there are weekend warrior instructors out there too.. I've had to fix a few of their former students in the past to get them in a position to even coming close to passing a checkride.
 
What stood out to me was as the jet was rolling, "The pilot was unable to interpret the PFD attitude indicator, which he described as presenting
information that he could not recall having seen before" He had training in the jet, doesn't FlightSafety or whoever he did it with show unusual attitudes in the sim?
 
Roger Roger said:
Easy hoss. My comment was directed at the double standard where 91 guys who do it are labeled incompetent, but when a big jet crew does it (our flies into a seawall in similar circumstances) they're "victims of a system" and anyone who suggests they were incompetent has "an unjust safety culture".
Click to expand...

The 121 guys that perform the same stupid pilot tricks ARE incompetent. I understand mistakes happen, and most issues can be retrained, but there are some incompetent pilots in every sector.

But professional 91/121/135 pilots screw up at this level far less frequently, while operating more segments per year.
 
Totally different systems I'm sure......I am not personally familiar with modern automated systems/flight directors, but I think the root issue is the same.

In my aircraft, you will occasionally get a plane with malfunctioning auto throttles....normally one throttle just can't keep up with the other and it kicks offline. Unfortunately, there is no caution tone or anything, and the only indication is a flashing "ATC" cue in the HUD. So if you aren't looking, ie busy doing a bunch of other heads down mission related stuff, you can quickly find yourself at 115 KCAS and about to fall out of the sky. Granted this airplane is very very difficult to depart, and unless you are completely out to lunch, you will notice how cocked up the airplane is and quickly jam the throttles forward. But I think it touches on the fact that with all these fancy gadgets in the aircraft to monitor and derive information from, it is very very easy to lose track of the fact that your job is still to actually fly the airplane. Whether that be by hand or by some sort of pilot relief mode, does not relieve the pilot of the ultimate responsibility of ensuring the airplane is still at the correct airspeed, altitude, and navigating to the correct place. Just something that I think a lot of people forget about when they move into fancier flying machines that can do more for you as the pilot.
 
Yea, but how many 121 pilots have recovered from a stall-spin starting at FL420 not once but twice and made it to a safe landing?

As I see it:
  • Private Pilots - 2
  • 121 Pilots - 0
 
Flightnerd said:
What stood out to me was as the jet was rolling, "The pilot was unable to interpret the PFD attitude indicator, which he described as presenting
information that he could not recall having seen before" He had truaining in the jet, doesn't FlightSafety or whoever he did it with show unusual attitudes in the sim?
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Unusual attitudes, yes. Spins, not typically, no.
 
Stop me if you've heard this one already......So there I was at 42,000 and well.....I stalled it! Then I stalled it again!
 
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