Don't need a degree eh?

jtrain609

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
Heya,


I'm up kinda late tonight (for me), have a few minutes on my hands and thought I'd throw something up here about something that has been bugging me. This topic comes up pretty often so I figured, why not throw down my opinion on the subject, as I seem to give my opinion on just about everything else in the world. It didn't really fit within the degree thread, so this one is getting started.

For you cats out there that are getting into this gig and want to meet the minimum standards for this job, I've got some really bad news for you; you're most likely in a lot of trouble. Do you guys actually think that you can get into this industry, meet the minimum qualifications and have choice companies knocking on your door?

We've got kids out there who come on and ask, "Do I REALLY need a degree?" or, "I don't wanna flight instruct! Do I have to?" As far as I'm concerned, if you need to ask the question, you need not apply.

To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

THESE are the people you are competing with for jobs. Read that word again; competing. You are trying to best these people in order to get the job that BOTH of you want, and in some situations only one of you will get it.

If you think that it's a good idea to skip flight instructing, skip college, skip flying freight, skip the regionals, skip charter, skip corporate or skip any number of things that will make you a better, more well rounded pilot in addition to a better, more well rounded person then you might as well just get your application to Mesa in order because that could well be the final stop for you.

I don't mean to be TOO negative, but there needs to be a bit of a reality check in this department. There has been so much hiring going on in the last few years at the regionals that I think everybody has gotten the idea that all you EVER needed to get a job at an airline was 600/100. Let me tell you what kids.

Two years ago when I was looking flight instructor jobs, I was told at something like 10 different interviews from the get go that if I didn't go to Riddle or UND, they probably weren't interested. 6 months later people couldn't find enough instructors. A year and a half ago when I was looking for work at a regional you couldn't buy an interview with under 1000/200. Now? 250/0 and you're flying Dash-8's or EMB-145's. Upgrades were running ULTRA fast at some companies. A year at Skywest, 18 months at Express, a year at CHQ.

This is not the norm, and things WILL start to slide back in the other direction. It always has and it always will.

Things are slowing down. Hiring is slowing down, the economy is slowing down and the qualifications to get these jobs WILL go up. Do you really think it's a prudent idea to forgo college, forgo having a flight instructor certificate and forgo any other chance you may have of building some PIC time doing banner tow, throwing meat missiles or any other ways to build time BEFORE you get to an airline cockpit? What are you going to have when the furlough comes, and believe me if you miss a furlough in this industry count yourself among the lucky ones. That 500 hours of SIC ERJ time like the other 700 guys you just ended up on the street with isn't going to get you much.

Me? I'm 25, flight instructed, spent time in a large air carrier's training department, passed three part 135 checkouts, passed a 121 checkout, never failed a check ride, never had a student fail a check ride (part 91 or 135), have a college degree, a cute fiance and I've got a lot of friends that would walk in a resume for me. And to be completely honest with you, I still VERY much view myself as an extremely low time pilot and that I'm not that well qualified, but I'd put my resume up to a cat that walked outta some academy with no degree and no real world experience.

So what are you going to do to combat that and make yourself a more marketable pilot who will get the job instead of me?

You're going to do everything you can to become a well rounded pilot, a better connected pilot, a well rounded individual and if you're smart you'll try like heck to best me in every way that you possibly can because when the furlough hits, I'm not worried in any way about being able to find another flying job. And if I can't? Tough luck, I go to law school and make more money than I would as a pilot anyway. I can do that because, guess what kids, I went to college and got a pre-law degree.

What makes YOU more marketable? Folks have GOT to start looking at this stuff and saying, "How can I make myself a better, more marketable pilot" instead of saying, "Oh gee whiz I've gotta teach! Oh no! That's horrible! I just wanna fly a jet! I don't want to do anything more than the minimum amount of work!"

And since I didn't mention it, GO TO NETWORK JETCAREERS! Anybody that doesn't make it is simply making it harder for themselves to get a job. I've gotten every job I've had in the aviation industry because of people I met at NJC, and I imagine that trend will continue.

Make yourself more marketable, make yourself stand out, go ABOVE AND BEYOND EVERYBODY ELSE, don't go for the minimum standard, network and make friends and if I haven't said it yet GO TO COLLEGE and be ready and willing to WALK AWAY from this career if it doesn't give YOU what you want out of it.
 
jtrain609 said:
Heya,


I'm up kinda late tonight (for me), have a few minutes on my hands and thought I'd throw something up here about something that has been bugging me. This topic comes up pretty often so I figured, why not throw down my opinion on the subject, as I seem to give my opinion on just about everything else in the world. It didn't really fit within the degree thread, so this one is getting started.

For you cats out there that are getting into this gig and want to meet the minimum standards for this job, I've got some really bad news for you; you're most likely in a lot of trouble. Do you guys actually think that you can get into this industry, meet the minimum qualifications and have choice companies knocking on your door?

We've got kids out there who come on and ask, "Do I REALLY need a degree?" or, "I don't wanna flight instruct! Do I have to?" As far as I'm concerned, if you need to ask the question, you need not apply.

To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

THESE are the people you are competing with for jobs. Read that word again; competing. You are trying to best these people in order to get the job that BOTH of you want, and in some situations only one of you will get it.

If you think that it's a good idea to skip flight instructing, skip college, skip flying freight, skip the regionals, skip charter, skip corporate or skip any number of things that will make you a better, more well rounded pilot in addition to a better, more well rounded person then you might as well just get your application to Mesa in order because that could well be the final stop for you.

I don't mean to be TOO negative, but there needs to be a bit of a reality check in this department. There has been so much hiring going on in the last few years at the regionals that I think everybody has gotten the idea that all you EVER needed to get a job at an airline was 600/100. Let me tell you what kids.

Two years ago when I was looking flight instructor jobs, I was told at something like 10 different interviews from the get go that if I didn't go to Riddle or UND, they probably weren't interested. 6 months later people couldn't find enough instructors. A year and a half ago when I was looking for work at a regional you couldn't buy an interview with under 1000/200. Now? 250/0 and you're flying Dash-8's or EMB-145's. Upgrades were running ULTRA fast at some companies. A year at Skywest, 18 months at Express, a year at CHQ.

This is not the norm, and things WILL start to slide back in the other direction. It always has and it always will.

Things are slowing down. Hiring is slowing down, the economy is slowing down and the qualifications to get these jobs WILL go up. Do you really think it's a prudent idea to forgo college, forgo having a flight instructor certificate and forgo any other chance you may have of building some PIC time doing banner tow, throwing meat missiles or any other ways to build time BEFORE you get to an airline cockpit? What are you going to have when the furlough comes, and believe me if you miss a furlough in this industry count yourself among the lucky ones. That 500 hours of SIC ERJ time like the other 700 guys you just ended up on the street with isn't going to get you much.

Me? I'm 25, flight instructed, spent time in a large air carrier's training department, passed three part 135 checkouts, passed a 121 checkout, never failed a check ride, never had a student fail a check ride (part 91 or 135), have a college degree, a cute fiance and I've got a lot of friends that would walk in a resume for me. And to be completely honest with you, I still VERY much view myself as an extremely low time pilot and that I'm not that well qualified, but I'd put my resume up to a cat that walked outta some academy with no degree and no real world experience.

So what are you going to do to combat that and make yourself a more marketable pilot who will get the job instead of me?

You're going to do everything you can to become a well rounded pilot, a better connected pilot, a well rounded individual and if you're smart you'll try like heck to best me in every way that you possibly can because when the furlough hits, I'm not worried in any way about being able to find another flying job. And if I can't? Tough luck, I go to law school and make more money than I would as a pilot anyway. I can do that because, guess what kids, I went to college and got a pre-law degree.

What makes YOU more marketable? Folks have GOT to start looking at this stuff and saying, "How can I make myself a better, more marketable pilot" instead of saying, "Oh gee whiz I've gotta teach! Oh no! That's horrible! I just wanna fly a jet! I don't want to do anything more than the minimum amount of work!"

And since I didn't mention it, GO TO NETWORK JETCAREERS! Anybody that doesn't make it is simply making it harder for themselves to get a job. I've gotten every job I've had in the aviation industry because of people I met at NJC, and I imagine that trend will continue.

Make yourself more marketable, make yourself stand out, go ABOVE AND BEYOND EVERYBODY ELSE, don't go for the minimum standard, network and make friends and if I haven't said it yet GO TO COLLEGE and be ready and willing to WALK AWAY from this career if it doesn't give YOU what you want out of it.
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jtrain-
This is definitely a masturbatory post if I ever saw one. It is good for you and only so-so for the rest of us. Good for you and all of your accomplishments: prelaw, never failing a check ride, and “toughing” it out in an interview. Good for you and way to share your success with the entire internet community. But I must ask who cares? The hiring minimums are crazy low, but it is part of today’s hiring market.

Like you, today I have a few minutes to spare, and I say everyone thinks they are doing the best they can and thinks that everyone else is sub-par. No matter what you think of today’s hiring Market either you get hired or you don’t. You have a degree or you don’t. Your post offered little advice nor encouragement, only a ranting opinion.

To distinguish my post from yours I will not only rant and give my opinion but I will give advice: This hiring craze happens once in a blue moon, take advantage of it if you can, fly safely, fly smart, save money, and live so you will not regret it.
 
Excellent post jtrain. Glad someone took the time to put everything in perspective. The comments about what things were like a year to two years ago really does shed some light on what this industry will begin to return to.

I really liked this part:

To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

THESE are the people you are competing with for jobs. Read that word again; competing. You are trying to best these people in order to get the job that BOTH of you want, and in some situations only one of you will get it.
Click to expand...

That is so true of any job, not just aviation.
 
That's a no bs pragmatic look into the "what ifs" of the professional aviation industry. I will forgo REAL TIME! TURBINE TIME! for a real education. I spent my college age years in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm not too far behind the curve, but when it's all that matters... the box is either checked, or it's not.

The focus on the minimums is what earns this man the cookie.
 
To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly.

Except for the whole "better looking than you" part.... as if!












(yes folks, that's :sarcasm:)
 
Nice Post! As a guy who just got the expensive piece of paper and who is currently looking at which flight school to pick, I can't help but wonder if all these kids going into regionals without degrees will just sit at the regionals forever cause they can't move on to the majors without the paper and thus, really bottlenecking the upgrades when I finally make it and killing my chance of moving up.
 
Good post Jtrain. What you say makes a lot of sense. I would advise anyone just getting into the industry to get through college first. It would be hypocritical of me though because I don't have a single day of college under my belt.

I was a career changer and emigrated to the USA back in 2002 from the UK at the age of 31 (before that I spent 9 years in the Royal Air Force and then 3 years working in the IT world). At the time I felt it was important to get myself flying before I was too old, while keeping the debt level at a manageable level. I took a job at the local airport working line service while I worked on my licenses and ratings. The FBO there also has a charter department operating King Airs. Once I had the basic requirements I was flying part time in the right seat as an SIC (pt 135). Fast forward to the present and I am now flying full time with what I consider to be a great job and my training loans are all paid off. I get a decent wage (for this kind of flying ), I work with great people, fly nicely equipped aircraft and I am home almost every night. The company is growing and moving forward so the future looks bright.

I would still like a degree (or some other form of training) as some form of insurance in case I should ever lose my medical. It is a worry once the salary starts to get higher.

I should point out that I never had any aspirations of going to the airlines. That is not my thing. I like being home almost every night (makes family life a whole lot better) and I like the variety of the flying we do (regular charter, Organ procurement and now Air Ambulance).

Anyway, at this level networking (and a good work ethic) trumps having a degree for getting a job flying. If you have dreams of flying for a big corporate operation or the airlines then the degree is of course necessary. The most important reason to have a degree for the rest of us is as a fallback in case you lose the medical. It is an expensive safety net though.

OK, flame resistant suit is on... I'm ready for the BBQ. ;)
 
majorityof1 said:
jtrain-
This is definitely a masturbatory post if I ever saw one. It is good for you and only so-so for the rest of us. Good for you and all of your accomplishments: prelaw, never failing a check ride, and “toughing” it out in an interview. Good for you and way to share your success with the entire internet community. But I must ask who cares? The hiring minimums are crazy low, but it is part of today’s hiring market.

Like you, today I have a few minutes to spare, and I say everyone thinks they are doing the best they can and thinks that everyone else is sub-par. No matter what you think of today’s hiring Market either you get hired or you don’t. You have a degree or you don’t. Your post offered little advice nor encouragement, only a ranting opinion.

To distinguish my post from yours I will not only rant and give my opinion but I will give advice: This hiring craze happens once in a blue moon, take advantage of it if you can, fly safely, fly smart, save money, and live so you will not regret it.
Click to expand...

You missed the point entirely.

I'm not that well qualified boss, but if you can't stack up my MY crappy resume then GOOD LUCK. When we're splitting hairs about the stupid crap I have on my resume, which to be honest isn't THAT impressive, and saying you don't need to do as well, well then sir good luck to you.
 
PaulRix said:
Good post Jtrain. What you say makes a lot of sense. I would advise anyone just getting into the industry to get through college first. It would by hypocritical of me though because I don't have a single day of college under my belt. I was a career changer and emigrated to the USA back in 2002 from the UK at the age of 31. At the time I felt it was important to get myself flying before I was too old, while keeping the debt level at a manageable level. I took a job at the local airport working line service while I worked on my licenses and ratings. The FBO there also has a charter department operating King Airs. Once I had the basic requirements I was flying part time in the right seat as an SIC (pt 135). Fast forward to the present and I am now flying full time with what I consider to be a great job. I get a decent wage (for flying at this level), I work with great people, fly nicely equipped aircraft and I am home almost every night. The company is growing and moving forward so the future looks bright.

I would still like a degree (or some other form of training) as some form of insurance in case I should ever lose my medical. It is a worry once the salary starts to get higher.

I should point out that I never had any aspirations of going to the airlines. That is not my thing. I like being home almost every night (makes family life a whole lot better) and I like the variety of the flying we do (regular charter, Organ procurement and now Air Ambulance).

Anyway, at this level networking trumps having a degree for getting a job flying. If you have dreams of flying for a big corporate operation or the airlines then the degree is of course necessary. The most important reason to have a degree for the rest of us it as a fallback in case you lose the medical. It is an expensive safety net though.

OK, flame resistant suit is on... I'm ready for the BBQ. ;)
Click to expand...

Paul you raise some excellent points, and thanks for throwing them on here.

To be sure my post is biased towards airlines. That's the route a lot of guys are taking here and I should have prefaced the post with that.

If you want to get to a mainline carrier, though, all the networking in the world won't help if you don't have a degree. If you can't check that box, you will go no where. Now if you don't want that route, then by all means, leave high school and go fly an RJ for a King Air (not that there's anything wrong with that, BTW) or whatever you want to fly but be ready at the same time to suffer the consequences of lack of stability, career advancement, etc. etc. (at the regionals, I can't speak to charter/corporate).
 
Let me add fuel to the fire.

In corporate America, the folks in the HR department are looking for reasons to toss your resume right into the recycle bin. They've got way too many applicants to bring them all in so they want to narrow the candidates down real quick.

And the way you make it easy for them is to not have every single box they wanted checked filled in.

And if it says a certain qualification is "preferred" you better have it. Your resume is going to be in a stack of hundreds. Most of the people applying for the job will have that preferred qualification.

Without it, guess where your resume is going?
 
Tony that's also an excellent point.

Mainline's today HAVE NO DROPPED THEIR MINIMUMS AND THEY WILL NOT. You are COMPETING with THOUSANDS of guys that are...wait for it...

Smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

That's thousands of guys that are qualified, and then thousands more guys that went above and beyond THAT to make sure that THEY and not you will get the job. Delta's gonna hire how many guys this year? 300? 500? How many qualified resumes do you think are in there?

I'm willing to bet 10,000.
 
Not only is a 4-year degree probably going to be a requirement for legacy hires in the future, it has it's other advantages as well. 4 years of getting up early, making sure you're on time to class, studying for that big exam the night before, writing that 15 page term paper, giving up that trip to the beach because you need to work a little harder in a certain class, etc.etc.etc. This has the tendacy to make you grow up real quick. Heaven knows, being a pilot is an awesome responsibility. Going through college not only makes you much more competative in the field, it will be something that will benefit you throughout your aviation career. If all you know how to do is fly, and you haven't gone through the college experience, you are at a serious disadvantage... bottom line.
 
For any decent job, you're going to get hundreds of resumes for every single opening. I was a hiring manager once and I had to go through a whole bunch of resumes!

Know what the first thing I made the guy who got the job do?

I made him do labels for the rejection postcards we sent out.

The printer jammed twice when he was doing it.

I knew I hired the right guy when he hit the printer and said "PC letter load? What the bleep is PC letter load?" :D

If anyone thinks the airlines are any different, they're deluding themselves. Airlines are part of corporate America.

Let me give you personal example. I'm a proven performer, and I'm consistently exceeding my quotas. There's a position in my company open on the west coast which would be a promotion for me.

But, there are certain qualifications they call "preferred" that I don't have. So despite the fact that I'm in the company already and am familiar with the culture and terminology we use, and despite the fact that I'm a proven performer, I'm at a disadvantage.

I took some time during my trip to LA to go and visit with the hiring manager. Know what the first question she asked me was?

Whether or not I had the qualification they said was preferred.

So, despite all the factors working for me -- my track record with the company, the fact I'm already working for them, and the visit I made on my own time to the hiring manager and the sales job I did on her -- I'm still not the best candidate for the job.

If I get the job, you all need to bow down to my sales superiority, because I will have done one hell of a job selling myself.
 
jtrain609 said:
To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.
Click to expand...



Velo and calcapt excluded. :crazy:
 
jtrain609 said:
Paul you raise some excellent points, and thanks for throwing them on here.

To be sure my post is biased towards airlines. That's the route a lot of guys are taking here and I should have prefaced the post with that.

If you want to get to a mainline carrier, though, all the networking in the world won't help if you don't have a degree. If you can't check that box, you will go no where. Now if you don't want that route, then by all means, leave high school and go fly an RJ for a King Air (not that there's anything wrong with that, BTW) or whatever you want to fly but be ready at the same time to suffer the consequences of lack of stability, career advancement, etc. etc. (at the regionals, I can't speak to charter/corporate).
Click to expand...

I guess I should point out that I know I have been very fortunate. Most aspiring pilots don't slide into a job like I was able to (after all there was no conventional interview involved - right place, right time and the owner already knew me from working line service).
 
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