Does part 91 count against duty/rest?

iFly86

iFly86

Well-Known Member
Hello,
I work for a small charter company (6 pilots). We currently have have 4 aircraft on charter and manage 2. We are currently having a debate and looking for a definite answer. Half of us say that flying part 91 before a part 135 flight counts as on duty/not at rest because it is a required flight for the company that we are compensated for. The others say that it is two entirely separate operations and the duty time doesn't start till 30 min before our 135 flight. To make matters more complicated we never have scheduled days off and are essentially on call. I know this isn't exactly the most legal set up either.

Any input would be appreciated!
 
Was the Part 91 for compensation? If you're flying for compensation then it counts towards your 8hr flight time in a 24 hr period.
 
Sounds like rolling rest and a really shady interpretation of part 91 not counting towards duty time.

If I were to pick an issue to have I would go after the duty time issue. Ten hours of rest is required before a 135 flight. Only travel local in nature is allowed that will not affect rest.

Local in nature will certainly rule out a flight. I can't see making that work in the eyes of the FAA.

Good luck getting any support from anyone regarding rolling rest. Most 135 operators are doing this and it won't be going away anytime soon.
 
As said above the 91 for compensation would not count as rest. There is no duty time limit in 135, only a 24 hour look back for flight time and rest. Since that part 91 flying(for hire) is not rest, you'd have to be able to complete your flight(s) for the day and look back and see 10 hours rest which would have started before the 91 flying.

Also, the 24/7 on call with no prospectively knowing when your legally required days off are is crazy illegal. I don't know if there's anything more universally agreed upon by everyone at the FAA than that being illegal.
 
You can fly part 91 AFTER a part 135 assignment as long as you want. And you can fly part 91 prior as long as it doesn't mess up your 135 duty limits.
However the local FSDO states that you cannot do a 135 trip if there has not been 10 hours of uninterrupted assigned rest.

Example. You have a 135 trip leaving at 10AM, scheduled to get back at 2PM , and you get an assigned rest period from 6pm, to 4 am the night prior. After 4 am you can fly part 91 before the part 135 trip as long as you don't exceed 14 hours of duty after 4am. Which means you have to be done with the part 135 stuff by 6pm. Therefore you have both 10 hours of previously assigned rest and you do not exceed 14 hours in a 24 hour period.


This is straight from our FSDO.

If you are concerned about legality make a call to your local FAA office. Whistleblow it.
 
iFly86 said:
Hello,
I work for a small charter company (6 pilots). We currently have have 4 aircraft on charter and manage 2. We are currently having a debate and looking for a definite answer. Half of us say that flying part 91 before a part 135 flight counts as on duty/not at rest because it is a required flight for the company that we are compensated for. The others say that it is two entirely separate operations and the duty time doesn't start till 30 min before our 135 flight. To make matters more complicated we never have scheduled days off and are essentially on call. I know this isn't exactly the most legal set up either.

Any input would be appreciated!
Click to expand...


First of all, what D-bag pilots do you have working there, that are selling themselves short on legal rest and duty limits? A part 91 reposition leg before a 135 flight (pax pickup at another airport for example) is a 91 leg on a 135 dispatch. It 100% counts towards duty and rest, your per diem clock should start at your duty show in the morning. If they are not calling that duty, they are 100% in the wrong. I cannot stress that enough. A 91 leg is not rest.

91 leg at the end of the day is also not rest. You can go beyond a 14 hour duty day to complete a 91 leg home (at the discretion of the crew) provided you do not exceed flight time limits.

Having no scheduled days off is 100% illegal. Refer to 13 24 hour periods every calendar quarter.
 
Inverted said:
First of all, what D-bag pilots do you have working there, that are selling themselves short on legal rest and duty limits? A part 91 reposition leg before a 135 flight (pax pickup at another airport for example) is a 91 leg on a 135 dispatch. It 100% counts towards duty and rest, your per diem clock should start at your duty show in the morning. If they are not calling that duty, they are 100% in the wrong. I cannot stress that enough. A 91 leg is not rest.

91 leg at the end of the day is also not rest. You can go beyond a 14 hour duty day to complete a 91 leg home (at the discretion of the crew) provided you do not exceed flight time limits.

Having no scheduled days off is 100% illegal. Refer to 13 24 hour periods every calendar quarter.
Click to expand...
So your saying the flight time limit of 8 hours single pilot or up to 10 hours two pilots applies to the 91 legs as well? Our FSDO disagrees. As long as you have your 10 hours rest you can fly well beyond those limits on 91 legs
 
I have been under the interpretation that all professional flying under a 135 release counts. It's not a 135 leg because it isn't a revenue leg.

Regardless, the important issue is that a 91 reposition leg is duty.
 
You can be on duty and fly as long as you want, AS LONG AS, at the completion of a 135 leg you have your 10 hours of rest and with the usual caveats, you will not exceed 10 hours of flight time.

The real catch here being, if any money changed hands, regardless of whom or what is on board, the leg is 135. See OpSpecs A001(d)
 
The issue is the part 91 flight is a managed plane not on cert. so they say doesn't count. They argue if the FAA was concerned about what was going on before 135 they would have written in some requirement for the certificate holder to verify the crew did not fly before their service. They try to compare it to drug abatement in that we can hire for part 91 before a preemployment drug test. Saying that because we are both 91 and 135 doesn't mean all rules of one apply to the other.
 
iFly86 said:
The issue is the part 91 flight is a managed plane not on cert. so they say doesn't count. They argue if the FAA was concerned about what was going on before 135 they would have written in some requirement for the certificate holder to verify the crew did not fly before their service. They try to compare it to drug abatement in that we can hire for part 91 before a preemployment drug test. Saying that because we are both 91 and 135 doesn't mean all rules of one apply to the other.
Click to expand...
Um, they're morons. ALL part 91 rules apply to 135 ops. Also, there are chief counsel opinions on this, so it really doesn't matter what they think the regs mean. The FAA has spelled it out.
 
iFly86 said:
The issue is the part 91 flight is a managed plane not on cert. so they say doesn't count. They argue if the FAA was concerned about what was going on before 135 they would have written in some requirement for the certificate holder to verify the crew did not fly before their service. They try to compare it to drug abatement in that we can hire for part 91 before a preemployment drug test. Saying that because we are both 91 and 135 doesn't mean all rules of one apply to the other.
Click to expand...
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir. The plane being on or not on the cert is of no bearing if the pilots are employed and required to perform duty ( giggle) foe the certificate holder.
 
iFly86 said:
The issue is the part 91 flight is a managed plane not on cert. so they say doesn't count. They argue if the FAA was concerned about what was going on before 135 they would have written in some requirement for the certificate holder to verify the crew did not fly before their service. They try to compare it to drug abatement in that we can hire for part 91 before a preemployment drug test. Saying that because we are both 91 and 135 doesn't mean all rules of one apply to the other.
Click to expand...

The 91 flight time counts towards the quarterly/ annual flight limits, doesn't it? Why would it not count towards rest?
 
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