Does 8710-1 include alcohol convictions? Future discrepancy between medical and 8710-1?

[charliezulu14]

Bit of an oddball where I'm not sure what the correct answer would be and there is little guidance from the FAA

Context: was arrested for non MVA underage drinking and later convicted. No license suspension, but I did do an online alcohol course to prevent drivers license suspension. Offense was not a misdemeanor or felony in my state and was an infraction.

Would I have to check "Yes" to the 8710-1 question "Have you ever been convicted for violation of federal or state statues relating to narcotic drugs, marijuana, or depressant or stimulant drugs or substances?"
The FAA states to "Not include alcohol offenses including a motor vehicle mode of transportation as those are covered on the 8500-8 medical application," but there is no information about whether general alcohol offenses should be included or not and in the parameters of that question it doesn't seem that is what the FAA is asking for.

Historically I have answered no because I thought this was dismissed after I completed the online course, but after digging up some documents for something unrelated I learned it hadn't and that the course was just so my license was not suspended.

I have also always checked "no" on both 18W (not misdemeanor or felony) and 18V. 18V gives guidance in the expansion box that states "Conviction means any judgment of guilt based on a jury, court, or military verdict, a plea of guilty, or a plea of no contest. If you answer yes, you should report report all misdemeanor and felony convictions regardless of the class of conviction and regardless if the conviction is pending on appeal to another court." Again, this was not a misdemeanor or felony conviction so I did not include in it in 18V.

So I believe I am in the right by not reporting on the medical, but I am wondering if this is required on the 8710-1, and if so, what sort of headache will arise from these not matching?

Anything is appreciated

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

​

The question on the 8710-1/IACRA application is very specific. It is directed exclusively at "convictions" (not arrests, charges, trials, allegations, indictments, etc) for violation of criminal statutes relating to "narcotic drugs, marijuana, or depressant or stimulant drugs or substances." As the instructions indicate, they are not asking about alcohol offenses or any other criminal offense. Got some DUI-alcohol in your past? The answer for this purpose is "no".

The problem is that question 18v on the medical application is super broad. Here's the full question:

​

History of (1) any arrest(s) and/or conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.​

If you read it closely, you'll see it is asking for three things. Any one of the three requires a "Yes."

1. arrests or convictions for alcohol-related driving offenses. Doesn't matter how the case ended. The arrest is the trigger event for a "yes" answer. To give an extreme example, you are stopped because the LEO saw you weaving. Based on an odor of alcohol, you are arrested on suspicion of DUI. You ask for a blood test rather than the breath test so they transport you to the local hospital. You pass. It's not even close, and the police drop it before you are ever formally charged. The answer to 18v is, "Yes."
2. arrests, conviction, or administrative actions which resulted in "denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges,." Under this one, it doesn't have to be about both driving and alcohol. Two examples:
   (a) You snuck a beer behind the stands at the college football game when you were 17 and got arrested for being a minor in possession of alcohol. The court ordered your driver's license suspended for 30 days. The answer to 18v is "yes". It was an arrest which resulted in a suspension of driving privileges.
   (b) You are stopped for speeding. There is no alcohol involved, but It's your third speeding offense within 12 months and the court orders your license suspended for 30 days. The answer to 18v is "yes." It was an arrest and conviction which resulted in a suspension of driving privileges.
3. arrests, conviction, or administrative actions which resulted in "attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program." Use the same same third speeding offense example. The court doesn't suspend you license. Instead, the judge finds you guilty, orders you to attend a defensive driving clinic and when you successfully complete it, dismisses the case. The answer to 18v is "yes." Regardless of the ultimate dismissal or even an expunction), there was an a conviction which resulted in attendance in an educational program.

It's that last one which might be a problem.

arrested for non MVA underage drinking and later convicted. No license suspension, but I did do an online alcohol course to prevent drivers license suspension.

That looks like an arrest and a conviction which resulted in required attendance in an educational program. You thought it was dismissed but it was not. But the answer would be the same even if it was dismissed.

Without looking at the complete record, I can't give any advice about whether there is really a problem or what to do (I'm no longer doing it privately either). What I do suggest is that you find either an aviation lawyer or medical certification specialist who will be able to advise you on the best way to handle this.

 

[charliezulu14]

​

The question on the 8710-1/IACRA application is very specific. It is directed exclusively at "convictions" (not arrests, charges, trials, allegations, indictments, etc) for violation of criminal statutes relating to "narcotic drugs, marijuana, or depressant or stimulant drugs or substances." As the instructions indicate, they are not asking about alcohol offenses or any other criminal offense. Got some DUI-alcohol in your past? The answer for this purpose is "no".

The problem is that question 18v on the medical application is super broad. Here's the full question:

​

History of (1) any arrest(s) and/or conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.​

If you read it closely, you'll see it is asking for three things. Any one of the three requires a "Yes."

1. arrests or convictions for alcohol-related driving offenses. Doesn't matter how the case ended. The arrest is the trigger event for a "yes" answer. To give an extreme example, you are stopped because the LEO saw you weaving. Based on an odor of alcohol, you are arrested on suspicion of DUI. You ask for a blood test rather than the breath test so they transport you to the local hospital. You pass. It's not even close, and the police drop it before you are ever formally charged. The answer to 18v is, "Yes."
2. arrests, conviction, or administrative actions which resulted in "denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges,." Under this one, it doesn't have to be about both driving and alcohol. Two examples:
   (a) You snuck a beer behind the stands at the college football game when you were 17 and got arrested for being a minor in possession of alcohol. The court ordered your driver's license suspended for 30 days. The answer to 18v is "yes". It was an arrest which resulted in a suspension of driving privileges.
   (b) You are stopped for speeding. There is no alcohol involved, but It's your third speeding offense within 12 months and the court orders your license suspended for 30 days. The answer to 18v is "yes." It was an arrest and conviction which resulted in a suspension of driving privileges.
3. arrests, conviction, or administrative actions which resulted in "attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program." Use the same same third speeding offense example. The court doesn't suspend you license. Instead, the judge finds you guilty, orders you to attend a defensive driving clinic and when you successfully complete it, dismisses the case. The answer to 18v is "yes." Regardless of the ultimate dismissal or even an expunction), there was an a conviction which resulted in attendance in an educational program.

It's that last one which might be a problem.

That looks like an arrest and a conviction which resulted in required attendance in an educational program. You thought it was dismissed but it was not. But the answer would be the same even if it was dismissed.

Without looking at the complete record, I can't give any advice about whether there is really a problem or what to do (I'm no longer doing it privately either). What I do suggest is that you find either an aviation lawyer or medical certification specialist who will be able to advise you on the best way to handle this.

Thanks a lot for the reply, and I will likely be consulting an attorney. What throws me off about answering yes to 18V is the guidance in the expansion box does not qualify my arrest as being reportable.

"For the purposes of this application, "Arrest" means being detained or taken into custody by any law enforcement or military authority for any reason related to a driving stop for suspected driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. List, for each arrest, the place, date, and circumstance of the arrest." None of this happened.

I was convicted, but the instructions call that "If you answer yes, you should report all misdemeanors and felony convictions regardless of the classification of the conviction and regardless of whether the conviction is pending on the appeal to another court." My conviction was neither misdemeanor nor felony, hence why I never reported.

Sigh, I just wish the FAA made this stuff more clear. I'll also attach the guidance from medexpress if anyone else 10 years down the line sees this and is in a similar situation

 

[charliezulu14]

the only thing i can find regarding administrative action is administrative license suspensions or revocations which would apply to the license part of the question. There is a non complete list of reportable admin actions about part 61.15

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

For the purposes of this application, "Arrest" means being detained or taken into custody by any law enforcement or military authority for any reason related to a driving stop for suspected driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. List, for each arrest, the place, date, and circumstance of the arrest." None of this happened.

That’s right. They are defining what ”arrest” means for the question. But the question doesn’t ask only about “arrests.” It’s broad to cover all the bases.

“Blue” means…
Do you have a blue, green or white shirt?
Is the answer “no” if you have a green shirt but not a blue one?

Glad to hear that you are going to get some professional advice.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

the only thing i can find regarding administrative action is administrative license suspensions or revocations which would apply to the license part of the question. There is a non complete list of reportable admin actions about part 61.15

The typical “administrative action” is the automatic suspension that happens in connection with some driving offenses. The most common one is refusing a breath test.

 

[charliezulu14]

That’s right. They are defining what ”arrest” means for the question. But the question doesn’t ask only about “arrests.” It’s broad to cover all the bases.

“Blue” means…
Do you have a blue, green or white shirt?
Is the answer “no” if you have a green shirt but not a blue one?

Glad to hear that you are going to get some professional advice.

I understand, but by their own definitions, I do not have an arrest (that is reportable), a conviction (that is reportable), or an administrative action from my interpretation. From my understanding based on what they say in their guidance, the shirt is not blue, green, or white. Will be interested in what a lawyer says though

 

[charliezulu14]

I did do the online alcohol course, but that was not a result of something that was reportable (In my opinion). So I could possibly see how it would be interpreted that way.