Do the columns add up?

Turbine

Turbine

Well-Known Member
Suppose you go on a flight, however you can not log it as total time.

However you make an entry in your logbook in the appropriate columns besides TT.

Can the other columns be added when your totaling up a page as long as the TT is not counted?

Ex: You fly 2 hours, in those 2 hours you get .5 actual, and 2.0 multi.

can you add up your actual and multi times as long as the TT is not logged.

Is this legitimate time to put on a resume?
 
What do the regs say?

Log what you want but be able to justify it. If you're in an interview and you get asked about something which you can't justify I promise you, you won't get the job.
 
Turbine said:
Suppose you go on a flight, however you can not log it as total time.

However you make an entry in your logbook in the appropriate columns besides TT.

Can the other columns be added when your totaling up a page as long as the TT is not counted?

Ex: You fly 2 hours, in those 2 hours you get .5 actual, and 2.0 multi.

can you add up your actual and multi times as long as the TT is not logged.

Is this legitimate time to put on a resume?
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Under what kind of scenairo(s) can you put entries in sub-columns, but not in total time? FTD/Sim?
 
Fly in a multi airplane, getting actual, however not having a multi rating.

Assuming PIC is not an MEI, TT not possible. Are the sub columns?

Reason i ask is because FTD simulated time gets added, even though TT is not possible in an FTD.
 
Turbine said:
Assuming PIC is not an MEI, TT not possible. Are the sub columns?
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If the person is not an MEI and you are not rated there would be no stipulation that I am aware of allowing you to log this time in any way. Even as a safety pilot you are required to have category/class requirements to operate as per 91.109, in this case multi-engine airplane.

Even the sole manipulator 61.51 requires you to be rated to log time which you are not. That being said I am unsure how you would be able to use this as time in your logbook or for any job, there may be some obscure way around it but to my knowledge you cannot.

As for the instrument time, it says nothing regarding being rated that I can find so I would guess this is questionable and a matter of opinion. Though I would be cautious with it as the PIC was not a CFI which might bear some other stipulations.

Good luck.
 
Turbine said:
Fly in a multi airplane, getting actual, however not having a multi rating.

Assuming PIC is not an MEI, TT not possible. Are the sub columns?

Reason i ask is because FTD simulated time gets added, even though TT is not possible in an FTD.
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You are a passenger. If you want to put it in your logbook as a memory, make a column called "observer" and put it there, but it isn't pilot time, so you can't log instrument, landings, TT or any thing else. Even if (fill in the blank) you still can't log it because you're simple an unrated passenger.
 
I hope when you say "you're",you are speaking in general about the scenario given.

For all you know i am an ATP.

Cite your source.
 
Turbine said:
Cite your source.
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I gave you the sources in my post for log as PIC which requires a rating.


I hope when you say "you're",you are speaking in general about the scenario given.
For all you know i am an ATP.
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Coming on with an attitude after asking a question isn't going to improve the chances of getting a response. Log your time, get laughed at during your job interview; let that be your source if 61.51 isn't enough. You could also take the answer Florida and Nihon gave and not log it as you were a passenger.


On another note, looked like I needed some brush up on the regulation here, makes sense though. Thanks for the information Florida and Nihon.
 
Turbine said:
I hope when you say "you're",you are speaking in general about the scenario given.

For all you know i am an ATP.

Cite your source.
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Little sensitive about "you" aren't you?

FAR 61.51, like all questions of this type, is the source. That FAR stipulates that you must log, among other things, PIC, SIC, training received, or sim/FTD for every flight logged. You can't log any one of those four things for that flight, so you can't log it.

Actually, you can log whatever you want, but it doesn't count for anything because FAR 61.51 spells out what counts.

The simplest (and usually right) way to think about it is, if you have to ask whether you can log it or not, you can't.
 
shdw, I saw you cite thank you. My question, however, had nothing to do with logging PIC..but you did discuss the topic of instrument time. I do appreciate the citing.

FAR 61.51(g) states " Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

No where does it say this time must be endorsed to count. What i was getting at is the simulated time logged in an FTD does not count for total. However the sub columns do add. I did not see a reg that required endorsement or certain circumstances, which is why i questioned to receive other peoples opinions.
 
Turbine, thanks for the attitude check. I will dig into the regulations some more and see if I can't come up with a more definitive answer. It would make sense that a person not rated can't do it but it is always nice to be able to prove it definitively for students.
 
Just a personal opinion, but if somebody came to me looking for a job, and handed me a resume with flight times that are funny, the interview is over. I would say it's pretty much impossible to log more SE and ME time than TT. If somebody can come up with a way, I'm all ears. I just am failing to see any way possible to have more SE + ME time than TT.

I hope when you say "you're",you are speaking in general about the scenario given.

For all you know i am an ATP.

Cite your source.
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Fly in a multi airplane, getting actual, however not having a multi rating.

Assuming PIC is not an MEI, TT not possible. Are the sub columns?
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I believe everybody is using the information you provided, so they are basing it off of your scenario. ATP or not (there is a SE ATP you know?!), if you do not have a ME rating, and there is no MEI, then you cannot log ME time legally.

Good luck.
 
Turbine said:
Fly in a multi airplane, getting actual, however not having a multi rating.

Assuming PIC is not an MEI, TT not possible. Are the sub columns?

Reason i ask is because FTD simulated time gets added, even though TT is not possible in an FTD.
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Would you log the time in a helicopter if your buddy took you up in one and he let you take the controls for 10 minutes? This is pretty much the same scenario. You aren't rated for the aircraft, so you don't log the flight. You would be a passenger only.

My friend's dad had a plane and would let him take the controls all the time when he as a kid, but it doesn't mean my friend gets to log it, as he wasn't a pilot rated for that aircraft.


Turbine said:
I hope when you say "you're",you are speaking in general about the scenario given.

For all you know i am an ATP.

Cite your source.
Click to expand...

It is generally hard, if not impossible, to prove a negative assumption.

With that said, 61.51 is the ONLY reg that deals with pilot logbooks.

61.51 (b) tells you everything that is REQUIRED to be logged:

(i) Date.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.

(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device, as appropriate.

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training --

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.

(3) Conditions of flight --

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.
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If you can't log something under 61.51(b)(2), then you can't log the flight.
 
Alright that sums it up. Again, my point was to see if there was a reg specifically prohibiting this. Just as regs do not say "FTD time may not be logged as total time" i haven't seen a reg stating "Actual instrument may not be logged by a non appropriately rated pilot."

Just clarifying some of the questionable areas.

Thanks
 
Turbine, go to FAR 61.1 and look at the definition of "pilot time" and go to FAR 1.1 and look up "flight time" and "pilot time"

You are correct: 61.51's logging of instrument time does not require the proper certificates and ratings, but it does allow it to be logged "only for that flight time when the person..." That's standard through the rule - "no flight time" no category of flight time.

Your non-rated pilot who is neither required crew nor receiving instruction has no flight time and therefore no subcategory of flight time.

There is one known exception - if you really think about it, there are situations in which a rated pilot who is sole manipulator might not technically have "flight time," but the way the FAA has interpreted the rule, he may log it anyway.
 
Turbine said:
Alright that sums it up. Again, my point was to see if there was a reg specifically prohibiting this. Just as regs do not say "FTD time may not be logged as total time" i haven't seen a reg stating "Actual instrument may not be logged by a non appropriately rated pilot."

Just clarifying some of the questionable areas.

Thanks
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In the FWIW category: there's no definition of Total Time even though nearly every logbook I've ever seen has a column labeled as such. There are definitions of Total Pilot Time and Total Flight Time and folks generally use one or the other in the TT column of their logbook.
 
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