Do I have a leg to stand on with the FAA?

J

JohnT

New Member
Hello, new to the forum,

I'll try to keep this brief as possible.

I put in my request for the CFI initial back on Nov 18th 2013. The head inspector from our FSDO came in to our flight school a day later (on his own time after work) to observe myself and other CFI prospects give ground lessons. He visits our school regularly to have meetings with the flight school owner. He subsequently came in a few more times to observe and critique us; sort of like a pre checkride, which I thought was great. He said I needed more work, which I was fine with, and since he said he'd be doing my ride, I really had no choice but to agree with him. I at least tried to get a date for the ride on the calender, he said he was 'free' after Jan 1. 'OK' I said, that's well beyond the 14 days in which the FSDO is supposed to schedule, but at this point I couldn't be pushy. Fast forward about a month later (Dec 23 to be exact), I call him for a scheduling, he says he can do it on Jan 22....? Now I'm angry, but what can I do.

About a week before my ride (Jan 13), I get a call from a different inspector, telling me the original guy is unavailable and that he's now going to do my ride. No valid reason given. Come to find out, that there was a conflict of interest with the original inspector due to him being fairly 'close' with our flight school. But the original inspector knew that this was an issue when he initially said he was doing my ride. So I'm sitting there wondering why I had to unnecessarily wait, and I'm getting angrier.

In dealing on the phone with 'new' inspector, I let him know this ride needs to get done and we need to fly, I think I told him that it'll have to be just short of a hurricane for us not to fly. So I went into the checkride, with a chip on my shoulder, full of anxiety, and ready explode. Needless to say I didn't pass the ground portion, got through FOI, and then everything hit me when trying to explain turns, all the pressure/anxiety/anger just culminated into that point, and they ended it immediately, I had zero leeway.

Now it looks like my FSDO will not be able to accommodate me until mid March. This, for me is financially unacceptable (I know the FAA could care less about this). At what point can I say to these guys 'hey, can I get a DE here or what?' I've got calls in to another FSDO in a different state who usually sends CFI initial rides to a local DE. My patience is nonexistent and my professionalism is about to go out the window. Do I have any authority (legal or otherwise) to make demands to the FSDO that I get a DE for the retake?

-JohnT
 
In short no.
Initial CFI rides are to be conducted by an ASI. There are instances where you can go to a DPE but the FSDO does not make that determination, at least in our office, it goes through Region. Most applicants seem to think the FAA will fail you no matter what on the first check but that is not true. (Most of the time, there are exceptions) frankly we don't have time for numerous retakes. The CFI applicants I've failed actually failed on their own. Use the most current PTS also.
Do not lose your professionalism, it will only hurt you. Have you contacted the Supervisor or Office manager? If you can't get anywhere with that you can always call your congressman, but keep in mind you still gave to deal with your local FSDO. You didn't say what FSDO but each one seems to have a little bit different office policy.
Good luck.
 
I've contacted just about everybody at the FSDO including the original inspector, I've gotten nowhere. The FSDO in question is in Windsor Locks, CT, located at BDL. This particular FSDO does not have a good reputation. Someone once overheard my original inspector (he's well known) say verbatim; that he fails everyone on the first CFI ride. The guy I took the practical with was trained by the aforementioned inspector, so I basically went into it expecting to fail. I've been learning a few things about the FAA (my local office anyway) is that they don't return calls, they could care less, and you need to do everything with a smile even if it hurts. I'm not blaming anyone for my failure, I did that on my own accord. I simply will not and cannot accept a mid march retake, that's completely ridiculous. I called the Teterboro, NJ FSDO, they handle Poughkeepsie, NY (Dutchess County) which is near where a particular DPE (Doug Stewart) is located, and close to HFD where I'm located, in hopes that they will hand it off to him, not holding my breath.
 
JohnT said:
My patience is nonexistent and my professionalism is about to go out the window. retake?

-JohnT
Click to expand...

Part of being a professional is knowing and understanding the rules and regulations of the profession.

Another part is separating your personal feelings from the task at hand. Your task was to pass the check. Your emotions prevented that.

You're already gaining the experience you need to become a professional.
 
You might be able to talk to the FSDO manager and quote the DPE handbook.

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/orders/8900_2.htm

FSDOs authorize FIEs to conduct practical tests for the original issuance of a flight instructor certificate on a case-by-case basis only. However, if a FSDO is unable to schedule a flight instructor applicant who has completed training and is prepared to take the test with an ASI within two weeks from the date of the original request, then the Flight Standards Service (AFS) division and FSDO managers are encouraged to approve the designation of a local FIE to give initial flight instructor practical tests. Additionally, FSDOs authorize FIREs the authority to renew holders of a current flight instructor certificate provided that the renewal only involves an administrative process and no practical test is involved. (See chapter 7, section 20 for a detailed explanation of the eligibly and authority of a FIRE.)
Click to expand...
 
Encouraged is the key word there. They still have no obligation to do it.

I had a FSDO start and stop by type rating training because of their schedule and changing dates. It ended up costing me some good $$$ is lost pay because if it. Other inspectors offered to help but the person involved wouldn't hand it off I'm
Told.

All you can do is roll with the punches and learn from it. It's not fair but such is life. If you make too many waves and ruffle feathers your next rife will be hard too. Got to learn to play the political games as well in this industry.
 
I'd do everything I can to remove yourself from the situation and find a DPE in Arizona or Cali to do the recheck. There are probably folks on the forum that know some reasonable DPE's or FSDO guys you could work with. Good luck.
 
Go to the Boston FSDO, not so bad, inspectors are very fair and reasonable. fly up to KBED and do it with the Boston fisdo, if you need to rent, call one of the two flight schools at KBED to rent an aircraft for the practical.
 
I second using Boston. My examiner was a chain smoker. The oral sucked because he left every 20 mins to smoke, but the flight was a 1.1 with 1 landing. Hopefully you get that guy!
 
It seems part of the frustration might be the self built obligation to use the BDL FSDO. You can always go somewhere else, and with a relatively uncooperative FSDO (based on the perception you have given), it might behoove you to look outside your local area.

I would first try @mojo6911 method. Have fun, fly safe!
 
I was a DPE in the San Jose FSDO and can tell you that they will do what they want. The advice given of going to a different FSDO is probably the best advice. I also would caution saying things about the weather conditions you'd fly in etc. as it sets the tone of the inspector or DPE to find out how you will make safe decisions both now and in the future with time pressures/money pressures looming etc.

You should look to a FSDO that gives a fair test in the time frame you have. I had a student I trained here in San Jose go to the Boston FSDO to take the practical test as he wanted to spend some time there anyway. I found the inspector there to be fair, and very up to date on the PTS and regulations. His test went well and everyone was happy.

Hope this helps you out. I gave over 2000 flight tests and many were initial CFIs. It's a hard test and it takes a long time to do one. All you can really ask for is fairness which you are entitled to get.

- Mike S
 
DE727UPS said:
Did you retire from the FAA? Thanks for bringing your expertise to our site. Best wishes.
Click to expand...
Hi.

No, we had a falling out so to speak. The way they began to ask us to conduct the tests were not in my ability to comply. It's a long story but in the end I was glad to have done it, and now happy that I'm not doing it.

I am heavily involved in lots of things at FAA Washington and OKC. I have written sections of the handbooks for the Advanced Avionics Handbook, which was supposed to be called the Technically Advanced Aircraft handbook and so on. Currently I just finished writing most of a FIRC waiting to be approved. I also have a CFI workbook coming out in a few months. It's the first thing I've written that isn't part of a large academy or University program. I guess the FIRC is that way too. Anyway, I'll let people know more about it when the I get some feedback from the draft that is out there at some schools.

Glad to answer any DPE, checkride or training type questions.

- Mike S
 
Mike, you weren't around RHV in the 94-96 timeframe were you?
 
update:

passed the oral, the inspector said my presentation was 100 times better, i was considerably more relaxed the second time around, that helped. I postponed the flight portion due to gusty conditions, they agreed with that decsision (surely it was not beyond my capability, but they were treating the flight as if i was training a student going for the private rating)....it was a no brainer to say no go.

showed up a few days later with the plane for the flight portion, it was real cold, i paid to have it in a heated hanger overnight, so i wouldnt have any issues getting going in the morning. By the time I got to the fsdo ramp and started the walkaround, the main struts were exposed 1/4in, the checklist calls for 3-5in for the arrow, he showed concern as I did, and I immediately stopped at this point. The struts were fine prior to flying into the fsdo, they just werent pumped up enough to tolerate the cold conditions. I have no doubt that I will pass the flight portion, it was really all about having the proper attitude, and he saw that the second time around. hopefully in the nezxt week or two, i'll have good news!!!

forgot to mention.....

while waiting for the BDL fsdo to get their act together, i put numerous calls into fsdo's all around the northeast. Apparently that got back to my original insepctor. he called soon thereafter frantically trying to reschedule with me. That wasnt even brought up remotely by either of us when we sat down the other day.
-jh
 
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