Do FO's get to fly?

B767Driver said:
The F/O serves at the pleasure of the captain. The captain essentially makes the decision who will fly what legs. Regulatory-wise, there are some situations where the F/O is not allowed to fly...CAT2/3 landings, takeoff vis below 1/4 mile, and some other specific circumstances for low time F/Os.

The captain should evaluate the F/Os overall experience level...and should the situation dictate...not allow the F/O to fly the leg if the captain deems the F/Os experience level does not meet that required of the situation. I would imagine in the current environment, with low experience levels, this happens occasionally.

Typically, though, the C and F/O split legs. I cannot recall a situation that I've been in where I have refused an F/O a leg...or been denied one by a C.
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You make every Captain sound like a check airman ;).

FO doesn't quite serve at the "pleasure" of the captain. I think that makes it sound very 1930's-ish. The FO serves at the pleasure of the airline just like the captain. It's a crew environment. Any captain who thinks his FO serves "at my pleasure" needs to go back to CRM training.

Though I agree with the remainder of your post. Captains are usually able to assess whether or not an FO can handle a 30 kt gusting crosswind.
 
Having grown up in a "Corporate Aviation Family", I understand that many corp pilots who've never flown for the airlines have no idea how things really work there. I've also noticed that more corporate pilots that I know believe that low time in the right seat is no big deal as long as insurance allows it. I flew for a company that only required 500 hours to sit in the right seat of a King Air. I know a different international corp outfit that has insurance that allows the Chief Pilot to put anyone they wish in the right seat, as long as they're qualified. That means a 141 school graduate with less than 200 hours could be in the right seat of, say, a G-V. Doesn't happen often but it's not unheard of. If you have an A&P and a commercial multi, there are corps out there that will hire you with low time. I think this may have something to do with the fact that your CFI thinks it's no big deal, but I don't know the situation. As others said, he's WAY off on the who flies each leg comment. In my experience, 98% of the time, we switch legs, even when I'm flying with someone on their first day off IOE.
 
P&H said:
You make every Captain sound like a check airman ;).

FO doesn't quite serve at the "pleasure" of the captain. I think that makes it sound very 1930's-ish. The FO serves at the pleasure of the airline just like the captain. It's a crew environment. Any captain who thinks his FO serves "at my pleasure" needs to go back to CRM training.

Though I agree with the remainder of your post. Captains are usually able to assess whether or not an FO can handle a 30 kt gusting crosswind.
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Okay, let me rephrase things a bit for you. The captain is the boss. The F/O is subordinate to the C. They are not equal positions of authority. Consistent with rules, safety and comfort...what the boss wants...he gets. This doesn't negate poor CRM. Most of the the C's I fly with display wonderful CRM skills.

Yet, as an F/O, I am under no false insinuations. It's not the F/O's airplane...there is no joint level of command. One person is "in command". Everyone else is subordinate. It's the F/Os job to make sure the captain looks good and completes the mission at hand.

If the C allows me to make some landings, that's great. If the C decides I should not make some landings, that's fine too. As I said, I serve at his/her pleasure...I still think that's an appropriate statement.

Everyone wants to erode the C's authority. We need to fight like heck to make sure that never happens.
 
As has been previously stated, in the 121 world you typically alternate legs or do "twosies." (Twosies being one guy will start out and do ATL-MIA, then the other guy will do MIA-ATL-SAN, then SAN-ATL-LGA flown by the guy who started- that way you both get to land at outstations and you both get to land at the hub)


The FO gear puller thing is more prevelant in corporate operations. Many times, the FO will only fly the empty legs. Quite stupid if you ask me, but that is the culture.
 
I love when people ask me..."Have you ever taken off???"...or... "How many years do you have to be an FO before you get to land???" People just don't understand that the FO is just as much a part of the flight crew as the CA is. Granted, the CA shoulders the most responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft, but as far as the actual flying goes there isn't much difference between the left/right seat. We split duties pretty much 50/50. I really can't believe that your CFI is trying to say that these low time FO's don't ever get to fly the airplane.
 
I always do the alternating twosies with my FO's. That's the way my ca's always did it when I was an FO too. That way if you're doing RDU-BHM-RDU-BHM-RDU each person can get landings in at both airports instead of one being stuck landing in RDU all day and one being stuck doing BHM.
 
B767Driver said:
Okay, let me rephrase things a bit for you. The captain is the boss. The F/O is subordinate to the C. They are not equal positions of authority. Consistent with rules, safety and comfort...what the boss wants...he gets. This doesn't negate poor CRM. Most of the the C's I fly with display wonderful CRM skills.

Yet, as an F/O, I am under no false insinuations. It's not the F/O's airplane...there is no joint level of command. One person is "in command". Everyone else is subordinate. It's the F/Os job to make sure the captain looks good and completes the mission at hand.

If the C allows me to make some landings, that's great. If the C decides I should not make some landings, that's fine too. As I said, I serve at his/her pleasure...I still think that's an appropriate statement.

Everyone wants to erode the C's authority. We need to fight like heck to make sure that never happens.
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Most of the time we split 2 at a time.

Often my captain will ask me if I have a preference. I always say, "Whatever makes you happy." My job is to make the captain happy (until it's time for me to not make the captain happy:D)I continue by saying, "I'll fly whichever legs you want, I'll fly all day, or I'll talk on the radios all day . . . I truly don't care as long as you're happy."

I will impose this philosophy on my FO's next year.
 
So be it. I'm just going to have to disagree then. I don't serve at the captain's pleasure. I show up to work to do my job whether it be flying the airplane, doing the paperwork, catching items on the walkaround, etc. I am not there to "make the captain look good" whatever that means. I'm there to fly the airplane safety and catch his mistakes and hope he catches mine.

We are a crew. Your whole subordinate, captain's pleasure rhetoric is not representative of a crew environment. This isn't the Titanic.

Accidents happen when Captains assert that kind of tone in the cockpit. I hope you don't give your F/Os this speech. I recently flew with a Captain Authority who didn't know his airplane and on two occasions I had to step over his "I'm the Captain authority" bullsh * t and tell him to call maintenance for a problem that maintenance told us when they got there we could not leave without having fixed.

Not saying that you're promoting this. Just saying that your tone accommodates this type of environment.
 
P&H said:
So be it. I'm just going to have to disagree then. I don't serve at the captain's pleasure. I show up to work to do my job whether it be flying the airplane, doing the paperwork, catching items on the walkaround, etc. I am not there to "make the captain look good" whatever that means. I'm there to fly the airplane safety and catch his mistakes and hope he catches mine.

We are a crew. Your whole subordinate, captain's pleasure rhetoric is not representative of a crew environment. This isn't the Titanic.

Accidents happen when Captains assert that kind of tone in the cockpit. I hope you don't give your F/Os this speech.
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I'm not speaking for B767Driver but I think you are misinterpreting his choice of words as all the rest of his posts I've ever read do not indicate he is the type of person that believes the captain is never to be questioned, sits on a throne and is un-touchable etc.

They are the final authority for the safety of the flight but as B767Driver mentioned, that is after dealing with everything as a crew up until the PIC makes the decision that cannot be overruled.
 
I fly the airplane, A LOT.

It's the FO's job to assist the Captain in any way possible. That is my objective. I am not there to please him, but I am there to help him and make our day as safe and efficient for the precious lives that we carry each day.

If the Captain asks me a question and I dont have an answer- I'll say "You're the boss, boss." However- some captains want to hear your answer no matter what you think. It shows them your decision making skills- even though he's already made the final choice.

Without stating the obvious there are good low timers and there are bad low timers. I think I'm a good one. I think Monty is a good one. I think JTrain is a good one. It's the macho (FOI's!!!) attitude low timers straight from JetU and UND who the captains seem to complain about.
 
I understand. But his choice of words indicates the opposite. If this is the kind of tone he sets in the cockpit, how many FO's wouldn't speak up if they thought he was doing something wrong? Probably more than a couple. The best captains I've flown with have been relaxed and have never set that kind of tone, and as a result, I've been more than comfortable questioning something that seemed strange.

I flew with a captain authority once, as indicated above, and I had to literally pull teeth to get him to listen. There's a reason that all the open-time available trips are with him as Captain. No one likes to fly with these kinds of people.

B767Driver said:
The captain is the boss. The F/O is subordinate to the C. They are not equal positions of authority. Consistent with rules, safety and comfort...what the boss wants...he gets. This doesn't negate poor CRM.
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Yes it does. That's Horrible CRM! What the boss whats the boss gets??
 
I think it is VERY important for the Captain to demand respect. Now I don't mean he/she should step in the cockpit and yell "I demand respect". But he must earn it. As a First Officer you respect the Captain the second you meet him/her- it's what he does after you meet him that can tarnish your respect for him.

Religion and Politics have NO PLACE in a cockpit although sometimes it NATURALLY comes up. Let's be honest. Joke about races and body sizes are wrong. Jokes about ground crews are OK! Same with Flight Attendants- jokes are ok!

One a side not, It's both the CA and FO's responsibility to keep tension as low as possible. A disagreement + high stress situation= BAD NEWS.
 
P&H said:
That's Horrible CRM! What the boss wants the boss gets??
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Then what does Pilot in Command really mean?

One is PIC, one is SIC.

If the GPWS is yelling TERRAIN PULL UP at night in IMC near mountains and the PIC looks like they don't know what's going on, sure, this is a time for the SIC to say 'I have the airplane' and get the situation headed back to normal. But barring made-up circumstances like that which we hope would never happen to begin with, the F/O does not have final say on decisions, only input leading up to the decision.
 
The captain is in charge. Some have better CRM skills than others, but the final authority and responsibility always rests with them.
 
SteveC said:
The captain is in charge. Some have better CRM skills than others, but the final authority and responsibility always rests with them.
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:yeahthat:

I am a CRM Facilitator, and I will tell you that I make it clear in all my classes that the Captain is in charge of the aircraft. The First Officer is the second-in-command. The First Officer should be working with the Captain, and the Captain should be running things by the First Officer. I always ask my First Officers, "What do you think?" However, I always have an idea what our decision will be, and using their input we derive a decision and implement it. Sometimes their input is very helpful. Sometimes we will be doing something different than they suggest, but I always explain the reasoning behind this so they learn why I made the decision I did.

Crew Resource Management is not an excuse for the First Officer to step over the Captain. The Captain is the final authority for the safe and legal conduct of the flight, and that is the way it will always be. CRM instead is a lesson on how to use all your resources (not just the FO, but ALL your resources) to come to a better decision than you could ever come to alone.

As for FOs getting to fly... Of course. In my first day of IOE, with sub-500 hours, the Check Airman decided that I would be flying the first leg. I actually had a decent landing too, except it was a bit long... Thank goodness for BETA. ;)
 
P&H said:
Yes it does. That's Horrible CRM! What the boss whats the boss gets??
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You left out the part where he said "consistant with safety". Most every Captain I have flown with has been relaxed and very competent. I had an occasion to tell the cap "autopilot off . . . right turn immediately", as I was reaching for the contols, but the captain fixed it. I was not concerned about making him happy in that moment, but he was happy afterward with my assertions.

Listen, I think that CRM is understanding your place in the Chain of Command just as much as it is communicating. If you're an FO who decides that you are equal to the Captain in everything but a few minor details, you are sadly mistaken, and could comprimise good CRM and safety in the process. The Captain has and holds the "Final Authority" over the flight, let's not forget "consistant with safety".

Within these parameters, the captain could tell you he wants to fly all day . . . not your decision. The captain could say just sit there and read checklists all day, I'll talk on the radios and fly, you monitor . . . not your decision. To a fault most Captains understand that they are training new captains and the tradition is to split legs, but it's not required. If you think it is you should check your opspecs.:)
 
P&H said:
So be it. I'm just going to have to disagree then. I don't serve at the captain's pleasure. I show up to work to do my job whether it be flying the airplane, doing the paperwork, catching items on the walkaround, etc. I am not there to "make the captain look good" whatever that means. I'm there to fly the airplane safety and catch his mistakes and hope he catches mine.

We are a crew. Your whole subordinate, captain's pleasure rhetoric is not representative of a crew environment. This isn't the Titanic.

Accidents happen when Captains assert that kind of tone in the cockpit. I hope you don't give your F/Os this speech. I recently flew with a Captain Authority who didn't know his airplane and on two occasions I had to step over his "I'm the Captain authority" bullsh * t and tell him to call maintenance for a problem that maintenance told us when they got there we could not leave without having fixed.

Not saying that you're promoting this. Just saying that your tone accommodates this type of environment.
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P& H,

You are completely missing the target of my post. You are unable to comprehend the meaning of "serving at the captain's pleasure" and your ego won't let you get past the play on words. This does not mean you are there to please him, get him coffee, sing to him, cater to his freakish needs, shine his shoes, carry his bags or play social director on layovers.

It means you are subordinate to the captain and to assist him in carrying out the flight in the manner and leadership style he chooses to display. You are not equals in the cockpit, although you should be a very valuable resource to the captain.

A leader/subordinate relationship is EXACTLY what a crew environment entails. Leadership skills are important...but just as important are followership skills. If you don't know how to be a good subordinate/follower...you are most likely demonstrating poor crew skills and are a serious drag on your captain.

If, as an F/O, you are faced with a situation, whereby its level of criticality will affect the safety of the flight...then your job is to apply assertive pressure to the captain appropriate to the criticality of the situation.

If, during the normal course of operations, you think you are equal in authority or status to the captain....you need to rethink your position.

BTW, I know something about being an F/O. I currently am one...and have about 7000hrs of copilot time.

I serve at the pleasure of the captain, it's my job to make him look good and I don't try to assert myself inappropriately into his leadership style in situations of low criticality.

When I was a captain, my leadership style was business casual. Do things right, without being rigid. I typically would empower copilots to make their own decisions while flying their legs...my only request was fly smoothly and in a manner that would facilitate passenger comfort.

In a BE1900 without autopilot or FMS...the stick and rudder technique of the pilot flying was very critical in respect to comfort.
 
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