DME required for outbound from VOR

braunpilot

braunpilot

What day is it?
I was chatting with another pilot today and he was trying to tell me that if you are flying outbound from a VOR, off airway, then you must have a DME? I didn't think this was true and told him to prove it, well he's taking longer because I want a reg or AC on it. Any ideas?

Originally he said it was in the AIM, I couldn't find it.
 
braunpilot said:
Where does it say that?
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Not sure if this helps, but the only place I can find anything about DME being required is when operating above 24k if you dont have a suitable RNAV.

Below 24, you need navigation equipment for the route to be flown, so if flying off airways via VOR radial you need a VOR, but I dont see anything about DME.

Hope that helps.

91.205
(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in §121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with §29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
(e) Flight at and above 24,000 feet MSL (FL 240). If VOR navigation equipment is required under paragraph (d)(2) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft within the 50 states and the District of Columbia at or above FL 240 unless that aircraft is equipped with approved DME or a suitable RNAV system. When the DME or RNAV system required by this paragraph fails at and above FL 240, the pilot in command of the aircraft must notify ATC immediately, and then may continue operations at and above FL 240 to the next airport of intended landing where repairs or replacement of the equipment can be made.
 
Yeah, that's all I know about too. I'm just racking my brain about how DME is required when flying outbound from a VOR off-airway?
 
braunpilot said:
That's what I thought. I want to see a reference about this and no one can give me one. I have no clue when it comes to this. I can usually fine something, but I can't find anything.
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My rule when I hear something weird is to ask for the reference. When none can be found or provided, I dismiss whatever claim was made as unlikely.
 
msmspilot said:
My rule when I hear something weird is to ask for the reference. When none can be found or provided, I dismiss whatever claim was made as unlikely.
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I confirmed it as best that I could and there is no reference and no foundation for this as best that I could fine or hear.
 
braunpilot said:
I was chatting with another pilot today and he was trying to tell me that if you are flying outbound from a VOR, off airway, then you must have a DME?
Click to expand...

You do not need DME when flying outbound from a VOR. In fact, you can even dead reckon on portions of an IFR flight. There are airways out there where you may have no navigation signal at all, and you can still fly the airway.

If your pilot friend still wants to argue and tell you that you need DME to fly outbound from a VOR, just ask him how he would fly across an MEA gap.
 
I've never seen or heard anything to back up what your friend says, in fact only the contrary.
Does your pilot friend fly 135 with you? If he does, some GOMs require companies to have DME. I can only guess he is coming from that and thinking it is in the AIM. :dunno:
 
smig said:
You do not need DME when flying outbound from a VOR. In fact, you can even dead reckon on portions of an IFR flight. There are airways out there where you may have no navigation signal at all, and you can still fly the airway.

If your pilot friend still wants to argue and tell you that you need DME to fly outbound from a VOR, just ask him how he would fly across an MEA gap.
Click to expand...

Never knew such a thing existed. Learned a new thing today!

More on that, the Instrument Procedures Manual on Navigational Gaps:

A navigational course guidance
gap, referred to as an MEA gap, describes a distance
along an airway or route segment where a gap in navigational signal coverage exists. The navigational gap
may not exceed a specific distance that varies directly
with altitude.
Click to expand...

I found one on V134 between FFU and PUC. Where exactly would you expect the gap? Just intermittent? Between ARBIH and YMONT or the changover point? The problem I'm having with it, is if you lost nav signal at say ARBIH 1)why not just make the mea higher? 2)Staying at 13,000 you would never get the signal from that VOR back if there is an obstacle blocking that signal at a closer point to the VOR, you would have to go higher and higher as you get further from the VOR. It makes no sense. The way that airway looks, it's like you lose nav signal 15-20 from PUC, but then if you keep getting further away (yet still at the mea) you'd pick it back up(do they have a repeater hung in the sky? lol). Seems to defy logic/physics.
 
z987k said:
I found one on V134 between FFU and PUC. Where exactly would you expect the gap? Just intermittent? Between ARBIH and YMONT or the changover point? The problem I'm having with it, is if you lost nav signal at say ARBIH 1)why not just make the mea higher? 2)Staying at 13,000 you would never get the signal from that VOR back if there is an obstacle blocking that signal at a closer point to the VOR, you would have to go higher and higher as you get further from the VOR. It makes no sense. The way that airway looks, it's like you lose nav signal 15-20 from PUC, but then if you keep getting further away (yet still at the mea) you'd pick it back up(do they have a repeater hung in the sky? lol). Seems to defy logic/physics.
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Looking at V134, I would suspect that you would have the gap close to the changeover point. Possibly due to mountains near FFU. I suspect you must be looking at an NOS chart and this might be causing some of your confusion. If you are looking at the NOS version of the chart, don't let the label "MEA GAP" confuse you into thinking that the gap exists near the label. NOS simply put the label near ARBIH because there is more room on the chart there. The gap may exist anywhere on the airway. The Jepp version of the chart uses a different label and puts it right under the Victor airway label.

If you were flying V134 (without Rnav of course) you would have to Dead Reckon across the gap, and use time to determine the changeover point. This is assuming you didn't receive a signal before then. The gap on V134 is a pretty small one. With a MEA of 13,000 the gap would be no more than about 18 miles. MEA gaps may extend up to 65 miles at higher altitudes.

If you flew V134 at a higher altitude, you may not experience any gap at all. Aircraft performance limits, or operation requirements may dictate that you fly it at 13,000ft however.
 
smig said:
You do not need DME when flying outbound from a VOR. In fact, you can even dead reckon on portions of an IFR flight. There are airways out there where you may have no navigation signal at all, and you can still fly the airway.

If your pilot friend still wants to argue and tell you that you need DME to fly outbound from a VOR, just ask him how he would fly across an MEA gap.
Click to expand...

Well, I know the issue was taken care of. No harm, no foul. I guess

Douglas said:
I've never seen or heard anything to back up what your friend says, in fact only the contrary.
Does your pilot friend fly 135 with you? If he does, some GOMs require companies to have DME. I can only guess he is coming from that and thinking it is in the AIM. :dunno:
Click to expand...

That pilot does fly 135 but thankfully, like everybody else has been saying, there are no documents that are supporting the statement.
 
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