Distracted Student Pilot - Pls Help.

[MikeD]

As long as they are paying, I say keep em coming in.

And this right here is why people who shouldn't be in the air at all, keep managing to somehow get airborne in a plane; and later either end up balling up a plane, killing themselves, or pax, or people on the ground. Because of this exact mindset that permeates the civilian flight training world.

 

[chrisreedrules]

And this right here is why people who shouldn't be in the air at all, keep managing to somehow get airborne in a plane; and later either end up balling up a plane, killing themselves, or pax, or people on the ground. Because of this exact mindset that permeates the civilian flight training world.

No... I said as long as they are a safe and legal pilot. If they want to pay for flight training knowing it will probably take them longer then I don't see a problem with it. Obviously there are those who shouldn't be flying, I don't think that is the case in this guy's particular situation.

 

[nosehair]

Perhaps someone here with a deeper understanding of the FAR's would mind shedding some light.

Here's what one of the principle FARs say. In 61.195 Flight Instructor Limitations and qualifications (d) A flight instructor may not endorse a:
(1) Student Pilot's certificate or logbook for solo, unless that instructor has-
(ii) Determined that the student is prepared to conduct the flight safely under known conditions.

And here's what the Advisory Circular, FAA-H-8083-9, the Aviation Instructor's Handbook, says.
You know, Advisory Circulars, they are the general instructions from the FAA about how to apply the FARs.
The FARs tell us what must be done, and the Advisory Circulars give us guidance on accetable methods of regulatory compliance.
In Chapter 2 Human Behavior, which addresses the human needs and defense mechanisms, a couple pages talk about The flight Instructor as a practical psychologist.
Under Flight instructor actions regarding seriously abnormal students, the instructor is first warned of this/her personal responsibility to refrain from certifying anything, and then encouraged to have another instructor make an evaluation, then if both agree, they should have private discussions with the local FSDO, and the local AME, for further evaluation and also to stop a medical and/or training with another instructor or AME.

So that's the official "requirement", and guidance.
Start with getting another experienced instructor's evaluation on this, not the innernet.

 

[MikeD]

No... I said as long as they are a safe and legal pilot. If they want to pay for flight training knowing it will probably take them longer then I don't see a problem with it. Obviously there are those who shouldn't be flying, I don't think that is the case in this guy's particular situation.

Im referring to the general thought process in the civil flight training world. You might believe in only safe and legal, but there are any number who will keep trying to "train the untrainable", because the $$$ are still flowing.

 

[rframe]

Im referring to the general thought process in the civil flight training world. You might believe in only safe and legal, but there are any number who will keep trying to "train the untrainable", because the $$$ are still flowing.

Might happen here and there, but I dont recall witnessing this scenario. I think far more people quit prematurely who could have been good pilots with more training, but just get frustrated by not meeting their own made up (or Internet-based) time estimates, or who encounter bad instructors who ruin the experience.

 

[MikeD]

Might happen here and there, but I dont recall witnessing this scenario. I think far more people quit prematurely who could have been good pilots with more training, but just get frustrated by not meeting their own made up (or Internet-based) time estimates, or who encounter bad instructors who ruin the experience.

Have seen it a few times with the ".....yeah, he's never going to get his PPL, but it's constant dual and he keeps paying, so we'll go up with him..."

 

[thevideographer]

Those aren't the only people who get killed though. Just as often the people who get killed have thousands of hours, and everybody agrees that they "were a great pilot" right up until the point where they died. It's not the dude who forgets the flaps and makes bad landings who dies, it's the one who decides to go scud running because he has decades of experience and doesn't think anything can happen.

 

[MikeD]

Those aren't the only people who get killed though. Just as often the people who get killed have thousands of hours, and everybody agrees that they "were a great pilot" right up until the point where they died. It's not the dude who forgets the flaps and makes bad landings who dies, it's the one who decides to go scud running because he has decades of experience and doesn't think anything can happen.

One is generally a mistake or overconfidence; the other is someone who shouldn't have been in the air from the start, was identified as such, yet was still kept up there because he was bringing in $$$. Only thing same is the end result, but they're two very different people, generally speaking, in how they got there.

 

[exneophyte]

One is generally a mistake or overconfidence; the other is someone who shouldn't have been in the air from the start, was identified as such, yet was still kept up there because he was bringing in $$$. Only thing same is the end result, but they're two very different people, generally speaking, in how they got there.

Any accident reports where this happened and the FAA came to this conclusion that we could read? I'd be curious to read about it.

 

[MikeD]

Any accident reports where this happened and the FAA came to this conclusion that we could read? I'd be curious to read about it.

It's not a conclusion, it would only be a finding. This is never the cause of the accident.....a cause is something that actually has to do with the accident dynamics itself; this would only be a contributing factor. Ill have to look at a couple I know of which were non-fatal, but this was identified, if I remember correctly.

 

[JDean3204]

As a student pilot, at times I have felt like I was not "pilot" material, for example getting nervous during my first solo flight to the practice area, totally different than just flying circles around a 5,400 ft RW. My nerves got the best of me and I did not establish two way communication upon return before entering class D. I KNEW what I was meant to do, but I was thinking of other things as it was a busy day with traffic all over on UNICOM, so with that I felt overwhelmed. No excuse for the mistake, and knew as soon as the controller said with a stern voice " A/C three miles north of airport, IDENT!!" After that I never made that mistake again, but was now nervous about breaking any other rules during the following solo flights.

Then I passed my PPL and am now working on my IR, which almost every flight I wonder if I will ever get the hang of this. My CFI's all tell me I am too hard on myself and am doing fine, I have passed all my stage checks and am working on approaches at the moment. Yet I still lack the confidence in my flying skills. Now I am in a different situation since everyone says I am doing fine, but I feel as if I am not all that great at flying, and very cautious when flying. I also sound like a total goon while making radio calls half of the time, which I was told will get better, but shouldn't it be good with 75 hrs of flight time already??

My situation is different from that of the OP. I just thought I would share this since we are on the topic of who should and shouldn't continue flying, I know most if not all of you stand up individuals out there are or were CFI's. If you had a student that was unsure of himself/herself, but still flying within standards, what would you tell him/her? I do not want to quit as this has been a goal for me my whole life. The chance to go through flight training was a big motive for me to get out of the service and do something I have always wanted to do.

I think part of the problem is that I am using my post 9-11 GI bill benefits, and this requires a swift pace at flight training to ensure the training will be covered plus a degree. So maybe I am moving too fast through the training, It does feel weird that not even six months ago I took my first flight, now I am shooting approaches while getting ready to start commercial stage 4 training. I do not want to be know as a zero to hero type of pilot at all, it is just how the VA works with my current program.

Thanks to all that reply, and my apologies for rambling on and diverting from the original topic...

 

[MikeD]

My situation is different from that of the OP. I just thought I would share this since we are on the topic of who should and shouldn't continue flying, I know most if not all of you stand up individuals out there are or were CFI's. If you had a student that was unsure of himself/herself, but still flying within standards, what would you tell him/her? I do not want to quit as this has been a goal for me my whole life. The chance to go through flight training was a big motive for me to get out of the service and do something I have always wanted to do.....

Again, you're talking two different people. Someone who is unsure of themselves, or lack confidence, or whatever is going on with them, but you can tell its due to inexperience and that they just need time "in the saddle" or some more repetition in order to help build confidence....that's normal student jitters that can come with doing something completely new. They're safe and within standards for the level they're at, they're just not ready to be fully kicked out of the nest yet. That's all perfectly understandable. These people aren't anywhere near the kind of person I've been discussing who shouldn't be in the air: Those who are nothing more than a hazard due to their inability to comprehend, total lack of situational awareness, or any number of other factors that make them dangerous, for all intents and purposes.

 

[shdw]

You know, Advisory Circulars, they are the general instructions from the FAA about how to apply the FARs.

I'm aware. Thank you though. Unfortunately what you quoted does not answer the question I posed. Though it is great advice for what the OP has posted. Sounds like his next step is AME/FSDO considering he's already done the other instructor path as he's inherited this student from someone else.


Further, the book quotes 'serious abnormalities'. Certainly this shouldn't include ADD or even ADHD per any case I've met in my life. As youngsters these individuals may be unsafe pilots, but by adulthood they are often well adjusted with the exception of taking slightly longer to learn new tasks than most. Surely not unteachable. And absolutely not incapable of being safe pilots.

Which brings me back to the original question. Is or can ADD/ADHD or other similarly minor mental deficiencies disqualify a pilot from getting their medical? Assuming one case being on medication still and the other being off medication. Perhaps it is just a case by case basis with no cookie cutter solution?

Thank you again for the post though, that is sound advice. I'm mad with myself for forgetting that part was in there!