Hi all. If you are going to file an IFR flightplan from point A to point B, do you have to file directly to a navaid first? Does the navaid have to be a VOR? And could you file direct to a VOR if the VOR is located on the field from which you will be departing, or would you have to choose another that is actually not at your current location? Thanks in advance.
Direct to where???
- Thread starter TomServo
- Start date
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hi all. If you are going to file an IFR flightplan from point A to point B, do you have to file directly to a navaid first? Does the navaid have to be a VOR? And could you file direct to a VOR if the VOR is located on the field from which you will be departing, or would you have to choose another that is actually not at your current location? Thanks in advance.
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Not if you have approved GPS, no, and techincally yes, but I dont know why you would want to take off and fly direct to your current location). What we usually do at UND if we're just going out to practice IFR maneuvers or get some actual we will file to a certain radial and DME.
Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Hi all. If you are going to file an IFR flightplan from point A to point B, do you have to file directly to a navaid first? Does the navaid have to be a VOR? And could you file direct to a VOR if the VOR is located on the field from which you will be departing, or would you have to choose another that is actually not at your current location? Thanks in advance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not if you have approved GPS, no, and techincally yes, but I dont know why you would want to take off and fly direct to your current location). What we usually do at UND if we're just going out to practice IFR maneuvers or get some actual we will file to a certain radial and DME.
Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok. So then I could file a flightplan that said someting like this, " D->R045 KBNA D15 as in the 045 Radial off the KBNA VOR at 15DME"? Does that make sense? I was asking in context to actually going from KBNA to KGWO. I didn't see a "preferred" IFR route listed in the AFD so I was looking at the low enroute chart to make one up from that point. I saw where Graham VOR is listed near Centerville, TN. and would be along the way but I didn't know if that would be too far to fly direct to at the start of a flightplan. Thanks again for your help. I hope I am making sense here.
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
Many DP's send you directly back to a VOR located at the departure airport. Sometimes it's the only navaid around, but terrain and climb gradient requirements are factors as well.
If you are in a radar environment, you can simply file direct. ATC may (most likely) choose to give you a route (especially in high traffic area's). Or they could clear you as filed, in which you would be given a heading to fly after departure for vectors on course (direct). Is that what you were asking?
If you are in a radar environment, you can simply file direct. ATC may (most likely) choose to give you a route (especially in high traffic area's). Or they could clear you as filed, in which you would be given a heading to fly after departure for vectors on course (direct). Is that what you were asking?
I'd recommend reading some of Don Brown's articles on AvWeb.
Index of Don's articles
Here's a good example...
And another...
Oh heck.....just read 'em all!
Index of Don's articles
Here's a good example...
And another...
Oh heck.....just read 'em all!
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Hey, Servo...where in TN are you? Why aren't you training with me? I'd have already answered that question for you...
Looking4Lower
New Member
AIM 5-1-7 (c) and (d) explains the rules about filing/planning direct...not to say that those rules get bent a little in the real world sometimes.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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Hi. I'm in Nashville. You should have already answered the question out of the goodness of your heart! Don't you have any pity for a little hillbilly like me? Are you at MTSU now?
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Well, I attend MTSU, but I fly up at JWN....what about you?
For what my two cents are worth, I'll let you know how I like to do it (which pretty much means the way I teach it...
).
Remember, many of the Instrument Flight Rules are in place so that you're able to operate safely in the unlikely event of radio failure. So, thinking back to our lost comm procedures, we know that we'll be expected to fly an IAP once we get to our destination (assuming we get there at or after our ETA, and it's hard IMC). So, although we can file direct to the Gallatin airport, there's no real way to transition from the airport to the IAP without then flying out to an IAP for the approach (or making smething up as we go along, which can wreak havoc on traffic in the area).
So, if I were flying into M33 from the east in IMC, I'd file direct BNA, direct M33. By the time you reach M33, you know whether or not you'll be able to fly a visual approach or if you'll need, say, the VOR/DME-A approach. If you can do a visual, I'm sure that NAshville will give it to you. If you lose your radios, however, you're already filed directly to an IAF for the approach, and you can transition directly to the approach (preferably by flying the arc, if you want to be nice and consider the folks at KBNA, right under you...
Does that help, or was it a whole lot of mumbo-jumbo??
Hi. I'm in Nashville. You should have already answered the question out of the goodness of your heart! Don't you have any pity for a little hillbilly like me? Are you at MTSU now?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I attend MTSU, but I fly up at JWN....what about you?
For what my two cents are worth, I'll let you know how I like to do it (which pretty much means the way I teach it...
Remember, many of the Instrument Flight Rules are in place so that you're able to operate safely in the unlikely event of radio failure. So, thinking back to our lost comm procedures, we know that we'll be expected to fly an IAP once we get to our destination (assuming we get there at or after our ETA, and it's hard IMC). So, although we can file direct to the Gallatin airport, there's no real way to transition from the airport to the IAP without then flying out to an IAP for the approach (or making smething up as we go along, which can wreak havoc on traffic in the area).
So, if I were flying into M33 from the east in IMC, I'd file direct BNA, direct M33. By the time you reach M33, you know whether or not you'll be able to fly a visual approach or if you'll need, say, the VOR/DME-A approach. If you can do a visual, I'm sure that NAshville will give it to you. If you lose your radios, however, you're already filed directly to an IAF for the approach, and you can transition directly to the approach (preferably by flying the arc, if you want to be nice and consider the folks at KBNA, right under you...
Does that help, or was it a whole lot of mumbo-jumbo??
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
St Pete FSS would shoot you for filing that.
They want SOMETHING between the airports. I tried filing ORL-SFB-ORL one day, and the dude went nuts on me. I said "Okay, how about ORL-SFB NDB-ORL." THEN he was happy. I'm a firm believer in ALWAYS ending your flight plan with an IAF "just in case."
They want SOMETHING between the airports. I tried filing ORL-SFB-ORL one day, and the dude went nuts on me. I said "Okay, how about ORL-SFB NDB-ORL." THEN he was happy. I'm a firm believer in ALWAYS ending your flight plan with an IAF "just in case."
A friend of mine was talking to one of the King-Air pilots here at Purdue recently, and he said that as he was filing a return flight to Lafayette from Monterey, CA the briefer asked him for the lat/lons of an intersection along the route. The pilot didn't have them, so he just filed direct. Technically legal, but obviously not what ATC would prefer. Turns out the briefer got back at him though -- filed them to a restricted VOR near Area 51, which ATC obviously had a few questions about, since it was nowhere along their route!
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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St Pete FSS would shoot you for filing that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it is Florida....
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They want SOMETHING between the airports.
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Yeah, it's usually the way to do it if you can. Hopefully you can find an IAF that's not on top of a major international airport....
St Pete FSS would shoot you for filing that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it is Florida....
[ QUOTE ]
They want SOMETHING between the airports.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it's usually the way to do it if you can. Hopefully you can find an IAF that's not on top of a major international airport....
JayB
New Member
Tom,
You need to file from your airport to a fix. They don't care whether its a VOR on the field or somewhere within range. They don't care if it's an intersection. I've never filed to a made up intersection, ie: the 045 BNA at 15D so I don't know if they'd accept that. I don't think their computers will take that. But you should file from your airport direct to a fix nearby and then go from there on the airways. If you have an IFR approved GPS you can file direct to your destination if you want.
It is a good idea to include a final approach fix in your flight plan although not entirely necessary if it is along your route anyway, ie: a VOR just outside of your destination airport.
You need to file from your airport to a fix. They don't care whether its a VOR on the field or somewhere within range. They don't care if it's an intersection. I've never filed to a made up intersection, ie: the 045 BNA at 15D so I don't know if they'd accept that. I don't think their computers will take that. But you should file from your airport direct to a fix nearby and then go from there on the airways. If you have an IFR approved GPS you can file direct to your destination if you want.
It is a good idea to include a final approach fix in your flight plan although not entirely necessary if it is along your route anyway, ie: a VOR just outside of your destination airport.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I've never filed to a made up intersection, ie: the 045 BNA at 15D so I don't know if they'd accept that. I don't think their computers will take that.
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Yep, they sure will!!
I've never filed to a made up intersection, ie: the 045 BNA at 15D so I don't know if they'd accept that. I don't think their computers will take that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, they sure will!!
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
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I've never filed to a made up intersection, ie: the 045 BNA at 15D so I don't know if they'd accept that. I don't think their computers will take that.
[/ QUOTE ]
We actually get that often as an ammended route clearance. For instance, direct CGT, CGT 110 radial to 45 DME, direct VWV... etc.
I've never filed to a made up intersection, ie: the 045 BNA at 15D so I don't know if they'd accept that. I don't think their computers will take that.
[/ QUOTE ]
We actually get that often as an ammended route clearance. For instance, direct CGT, CGT 110 radial to 45 DME, direct VWV... etc.
ananoman
New Member
This topic has caused much confusion to the IFR student. Much of the reason is that I have yet to discover anything from the FAA or any other publisher that describes the 'right' way to file a flight plan.
You have to remember that the system has evolved from a time in the not too distant past when there was no radar coverage anywhere. If you think like this and file your flight plan as if there is no such thing as 'radar vectors', you will be better off.
To file a flight plan you will need the approach plates from both your departure and destination airports and the enroute charts. I have seen quite a few try to file without using the approach plates and it is always a mistake.
If you do not have GPS, then you must file from your airport to a VOR in order to enter an airway. You must be within the service volume for the navaid. If the airport has any DP's this will make your life easier. In rare cases you may file to the NDB at a near by airport if it is inconvenient to enter the enroute structure.
Do not use any NDB (like a compass locator) or intersection not on the enroute charts. These are usually not in the computer that does the flight plans. I am convinced that where ever the computer is, it probably still contains vacuum tubes.
If you do have an IFR approved GPS, then you are free to file to a nearby waypoint on an airway. This is really not the advantage that people think, as the controller is not going to have you back track 20 nm out of your way to join an airway if they have radar coverage, it just makes your life easier.
You must also examine the approach plates for your destination. Look for a VOR or intersection that is a feeder route or IAF. This will give valuable insight as to what airway to use to get you to your destination. STARs can also be used.
Do not ever file 'Radar Vectors'! The only exception to this rule is the few airports that only have approaches like multiple ILS's that have no feeder routes. These approaches will all have the notation 'radar required'. This is usually not a problem if you have a GPS as there is usually at least one GPS approach to an airport like this, but it can happen. If you do end up in this situation, I would advise you to file an alternate regardless of the weather at your destination (unless it is totally VFR). It would be possible to lose coms and not be able to navigate to any IAF in this situation. An alternate could help ATC know your intentions if this occurs.
Only file direct if the airport is nearby or if you follow the rules in the AIM.
Really the best solution is to find a CFI who can go through some scenarios with you to airports in your area. Make sure you make use of DPs and STARs for a few of the sample flight plans. Try to find someone who actually knows what they are doing. I have encountered quite a few instrument rated pilots who have no idea how to file a flight plan so it is not as uncommon as you would think.
You have to remember that the system has evolved from a time in the not too distant past when there was no radar coverage anywhere. If you think like this and file your flight plan as if there is no such thing as 'radar vectors', you will be better off.
To file a flight plan you will need the approach plates from both your departure and destination airports and the enroute charts. I have seen quite a few try to file without using the approach plates and it is always a mistake.
If you do not have GPS, then you must file from your airport to a VOR in order to enter an airway. You must be within the service volume for the navaid. If the airport has any DP's this will make your life easier. In rare cases you may file to the NDB at a near by airport if it is inconvenient to enter the enroute structure.
Do not use any NDB (like a compass locator) or intersection not on the enroute charts. These are usually not in the computer that does the flight plans. I am convinced that where ever the computer is, it probably still contains vacuum tubes.
If you do have an IFR approved GPS, then you are free to file to a nearby waypoint on an airway. This is really not the advantage that people think, as the controller is not going to have you back track 20 nm out of your way to join an airway if they have radar coverage, it just makes your life easier.
You must also examine the approach plates for your destination. Look for a VOR or intersection that is a feeder route or IAF. This will give valuable insight as to what airway to use to get you to your destination. STARs can also be used.
Do not ever file 'Radar Vectors'! The only exception to this rule is the few airports that only have approaches like multiple ILS's that have no feeder routes. These approaches will all have the notation 'radar required'. This is usually not a problem if you have a GPS as there is usually at least one GPS approach to an airport like this, but it can happen. If you do end up in this situation, I would advise you to file an alternate regardless of the weather at your destination (unless it is totally VFR). It would be possible to lose coms and not be able to navigate to any IAF in this situation. An alternate could help ATC know your intentions if this occurs.
Only file direct if the airport is nearby or if you follow the rules in the AIM.
Really the best solution is to find a CFI who can go through some scenarios with you to airports in your area. Make sure you make use of DPs and STARs for a few of the sample flight plans. Try to find someone who actually knows what they are doing. I have encountered quite a few instrument rated pilots who have no idea how to file a flight plan so it is not as uncommon as you would think.
ananoman
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Does the navaid have to be a VOR? And could you file direct to a VOR if the VOR is located on the field from which you will be departing, or would you have to choose another that is actually not at your current location? Thanks in advance.
[/ QUOTE ]
To clear up any confusion, you can use a VOR on the field to enter an airway. You can also use a VOR off the field if you are within it's service volume.
The only time you will have difficulty is when you want to do approaches at your home airport. For example, you cannot file a flight plan from KVRB to VRB to KVRB. The computer does not understand how to generate a flight plan like this, as you are already at your destination. You must usually file to a navaid or fix a few miles away, then return to the airport.
Does the navaid have to be a VOR? And could you file direct to a VOR if the VOR is located on the field from which you will be departing, or would you have to choose another that is actually not at your current location? Thanks in advance.
[/ QUOTE ]
To clear up any confusion, you can use a VOR on the field to enter an airway. You can also use a VOR off the field if you are within it's service volume.
The only time you will have difficulty is when you want to do approaches at your home airport. For example, you cannot file a flight plan from KVRB to VRB to KVRB. The computer does not understand how to generate a flight plan like this, as you are already at your destination. You must usually file to a navaid or fix a few miles away, then return to the airport.
Looking4Lower
New Member
I stand by my earlier answer: AIM 5-1-7 (c) and (d), AND somebody posted a link to this excellent Don Brown article (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/185690-1.html) which is very well-written and addresses these parts of the AIM. What seems like a complicated mess actually boils down to a small handful of rules for filing.
Of course, keep in mind that you often get CLEARED to do things differently than how you FILED. Example: let's say you FILE to an initial fix which is a VOR that would "backtrack" you to back to the airport or somewhere out of the way, even though the VOR is used to define the airway you want. When you depart and check on with Center or Approach, they will very likely just give you a vector to join the airway or to send you "on course" and won't actually send you back in some inconvenient direction.
Of course, keep in mind that you often get CLEARED to do things differently than how you FILED. Example: let's say you FILE to an initial fix which is a VOR that would "backtrack" you to back to the airport or somewhere out of the way, even though the VOR is used to define the airway you want. When you depart and check on with Center or Approach, they will very likely just give you a vector to join the airway or to send you "on course" and won't actually send you back in some inconvenient direction.