I'm having a little trouble grasping this hold entry. Say you're approaching the VOR from the south (360 heading) and you'll be holding on the 090 radial (270 inbound course). Technically this is a direct entry, but I've never really gotten a straight answer than I understand on how to perform the direct entry. Would you pass over the VOR for 1 minute and then join the outbound course? I've had people tell me to turn to my outbound heading right after passing over the VOR but when I've done it this put me pretty much directly ON the inbound radial, causing me to have to do a left turn to join the inbound radial to stay on the protected side. Can anyone dumb this down so I can understand what I'm supposed to do?
Direct entry question.
- Thread starter JordanD
- Start date
No wind, you should be able to turn outbound, fly for a minute then turn inbound and not be far off at all from the inbound course. With the same bank angle and speed, the outbound turn radius should equal the inbound. With winds, which is maybe what you faced.....winds out of the north in your example......you'd need to turn to an outbound wind corrected course or make a wind correction after rolling out outbound if you see yourself drifting south towards the inbound course.
Or you can do teardrop entry.
Rivanthe5th
Well-Known Member
Remember, you're doing a 90 degree turn to the outbound rather than a 180 turn. Depending on the wind, try a half standard rate turn rather than a standard rate, to put yourself further north (assuming you're holding NE of the VOR on the 090 radial).
Or, as Mike said, teardrop. Gives you a set heading to fly (060 +- WC) and a set time (1min give or take for head/tail wind). Makes it easier to think about
Rather than guestimating how far north you need to fly to make sure you get N enough to stay on the safe side when you turn back inbound.
Or, as Mike said, teardrop. Gives you a set heading to fly (060 +- WC) and a set time (1min give or take for head/tail wind). Makes it easier to think about
Rather than guestimating how far north you need to fly to make sure you get N enough to stay on the safe side when you turn back inbound.Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Giggity
nosehair
Well-Known Member
Keep in mind, this entry procedure is a "recommended procedure" in the AIM, similar to the "recommended" non-tower pattern entry.
You can adjust to the situation.
For instance, a 'direct' entry with no adjustment necessary would be inbound on the 180 radial (heading 360) and holding south on the 180 radial. Bam! a 180 to the right as soon as the vor shows "from". You're going directly into the racetrack pattern.
But in your case, you would want to slow the turn a bit because you are turning only 90 degrees. It also depends on the wind; tailwind or headwind or crosswind.
Just like you adjust your vfr pattern from downwind to base to final according to wind and pattern entry point.
But, sometimes, you cannot know in advance what is going to happen, so the standard recommended entries will always work to keep you in the safe zone.
You can adjust to the situation.
For instance, a 'direct' entry with no adjustment necessary would be inbound on the 180 radial (heading 360) and holding south on the 180 radial. Bam! a 180 to the right as soon as the vor shows "from". You're going directly into the racetrack pattern.
But in your case, you would want to slow the turn a bit because you are turning only 90 degrees. It also depends on the wind; tailwind or headwind or crosswind.
Just like you adjust your vfr pattern from downwind to base to final according to wind and pattern entry point.
But, sometimes, you cannot know in advance what is going to happen, so the standard recommended entries will always work to keep you in the safe zone.
Xcaliber
El Chupacabra
I'd just fly straight after passing the VOR for 15 seconds or so (actually, with no wind and perfect execution, it'd be 19.098593171 seconds). Or you could do the half standard rate turn thing. Both will work. Really, holding is such an imprecise thing that it's not worth worrying about. Fly in a circle, you're not going anywhere.
I doubt the examiner will see it that way on the checkride.
I just never really saw a direct entry from that direction explained in the books other than "fly to the station then join the racetrack." Not very specific. In this situation I think a teardrop makes more sense but my CFI was saying a direct was the recommended entry when approaching from that direction.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Any hold can be entered directly. It's just a question of bank angle 
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Jordan, I'm trying to picture what you are doing. If you're doing the direct entry in the AIM-recommended circumstances, given no wind, even if you're doing the shortest of those turns standard rate, I'm not sure how you manage to intercept the inbound.
Given wind (which you of course know from your briefing or the ATIS) it's just a matter of adjusting your heading to compensate. If you know the wind is going to blow you closer to the inbound course, don't go all the way to parallel the inbound.
Suggestion: I've found that most of us tend to over-complicate holds. Without going so far as to disregard the AIM-recommendations (which isn't a particularly helpful position for an instrument student) a ground session with a CFI who knows how to teach it well usually dumbs it down enough to make the process meaningful.
Given wind (which you of course know from your briefing or the ATIS) it's just a matter of adjusting your heading to compensate. If you know the wind is going to blow you closer to the inbound course, don't go all the way to parallel the inbound.
Suggestion: I've found that most of us tend to over-complicate holds. Without going so far as to disregard the AIM-recommendations (which isn't a particularly helpful position for an instrument student) a ground session with a CFI who knows how to teach it well usually dumbs it down enough to make the process meaningful.
A standard rate turn to the outbound heading after passing the VOR had me flying outbound on the radial that I was supposed to be holding inbound on. I don't remember the winds being particularly strong, but either way it seems like if I did this in no wind it would have taken a hell of a lot more than standard rate to not overshoot the inbound radial coming back in. I can't find any kind of diagram that depicts a direct entry from that side either. The "wait 10 seconds before turning" method would seem like it would work, but it also seems like that would make it more of a teardrop entry.
A150K
Well-Known Member
Any hold can be entered directly. It's just a question of bank angle
You're Dangerous.....:insane:
irate::bandit:
AlbertE
Well-Known Member
Yes, direct entry is recommended from that direction, but it is not required. In your scenario I would simply do a teardrop entry. It is a shorter turn and the turn inbound can be made much easier without having to bank very aggressively to make your inbound course.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
1) If you stay on the protected side, you can do whatever the hell you want, King Schools Iron-Fisted Apparatchiks notwithstanding.
2) Direct entry means you get to be a JEEETTTTTT Captain from day one. Here, I have some brochures...
2) Direct entry means you get to be a JEEETTTTTT Captain from day one. Here, I have some brochures...
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
To add a little more confusion into the mix: both sides of the radial are actually in protected airspace, there is just generally a much greater amount on the holding side. This is why a parallel entry is not metal on metal collison dangerous. Protected airspace is sort of a misnomer in that regard, it's much better to use the term holding or non-holding side.
Out fo sheer ingrained habit, I still loosely intercept the hold radial outbound when performing a parallel entry. In the fighter days, we were required to make a 20 degree cut back towards the hold radial following the parallel entry if over (IIRC) 180 kts. To this day, I still do it.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Same likely reason as your force of habit I always have the cutback, but I never tried to intercept the radial outbound that I can recall. I'm sure it happened a few times from winds or imprecise flying or maybe because an IP told me to do it, but not really ever intentionally. I think you're also right that the speed threshhold is 180 kts true for requiring a correction of 20 degrees or at least it's required for a PT so I assume for a regular hold as well.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I just drew your hold (see another post about the benefits of doing it). Your sceanrio is sort of on the cusp between the AIM direct and teardrop. That's one reason you "see" teardrop in it.
I can see in that sceario where a short 90-deg turn puts you retty lose to the inbound (although I don't see how you'd cross it). Your answer is to adjust or once you feel you understand it, deviate as makes sense based on conditions - you'll find that the deviations you do aren't that great - mostly on the level of deciding to do a teardrop rather than a direct entry in your example.
One thing that shows you is the limitations of the AIM-recommnded entries - they're not perfect. They balanced some factors and, on the endges, it doesn't always work out.
The other is that your question shows pretty good sitational awareness for someone who says he's having trouble getting ti.
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
Really? Why do you say that? Entries are "recommended". You can do what you want as long as you have a reason for doing it and it works. As long as you hold where you're supposed to it doesn't matter how you get in to the hold.
Fly to, in your example, the VOR, turn to 090, wait a minute and then turn and intercept the course. Hold as instructed. Repeat as necessary.