Direct Entry at US majors

I think that when pilots have choices, certain carriers fall to the bottom of the wish list. Whether that is because they have a single fleet type, or undesirable bases, or their perceived operational tempo, or their clientele, lengthy upgrade times, or even where you could nonrev to. That’s just the reality of this business. When those companies can’t fill classes or lose pilots within the first 5 years they will lower their hiring requirements until that problem goes away. The immediate result is that pilots who weren’t particularly well qualified yesterday are suddenly competitive today.

The longer term effect is that some of the unhirable malcontents who would have otherwise be regional lifers are suddenly competitive. And that should scare all of us.

This isn’t a commentary on anyone here btw. Most pilots who frequent aviation message boards are interested in self improvement and are at least somewhat introspective.

I made a ton of mistakes along these lines. Wish I could go have a chat with and possibly beat some sense into 25 year old me. [emoji57]


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ZapBrannigan said:
The longer term effect is that some of the unhirable malcontents who would have otherwise be regional lifers are suddenly competitive. And that should scare all of us.
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If someone is an “unhirable malcontent,” then what should be scary is that he’s working in aviation at all, not that he’ll suddenly be able to get to a major. It’s not less scary that he’s responsible for lives at ExpressJet instead of United. That’s the entire problem with the system: you’re good enough for the regionals but not for mainline, even though you’re flying the exact same customers under the same brand.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I think that when pilots have choices, certain carriers fall to the bottom of the wish list. Whether that is because they have a single fleet type, or undesirable bases, or their perceived operational tempo, or their clientele, lengthy upgrade times, or even where you could nonrev to. That’s just the reality of this business. When those companies can’t fill classes or lose pilots within the first 5 years they will lower their hiring requirements until that problem goes away. The immediate result is that pilots who weren’t particularly well qualified yesterday are suddenly competitive today.

The longer term effect is that some of the unhirable malcontents who would have otherwise be regional lifers are suddenly competitive. And that should scare all of us.

This isn’t a commentary on anyone here btw. Most pilots who frequent aviation message boards are interested in self improvement and are at least somewhat introspective.

I made a ton of mistakes along these lines. Wish I could go have a chat with and possibly beat some sense into 25 year old me. [emoji57]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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We are seeing that at beachball. To the point that it is rumored that someone at a meeting between our check airmen and management someone asked our management team if they are prepared for a hull loss.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
We are seeing that at beachball. To the point that it is rumored that someone at a meeting between our check airmen and management someone asked our management team if they are prepared for a hull loss.
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Wouldn’t the check airmen have some say in the “product” of the training department that ultimately makes it to the line? Or are they being pressured by management to force people through the pipe?
 
Sooo, does this mean we can go troll a popular European pilot forum asking who we make the check (ooops, sorry, cheque) out to so we can pay for training to work for some SULCC?

Not surprising for a part of the world that calls crew scheduling "rostering schemes". That sounds like a recipe for rotisserie chicken.
 
Richman said:
Sooo, does this mean we can go troll a popular European pilot forum asking who we make the check (ooops, sorry, cheque) out to so we can pay for training to work for some SULCC?

Not surprising for a part of the world that calls crew scheduling "rostering schemes". That sounds like a recipe for rotisserie chicken.
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Ironically I think they charge for access over there too...

I guess they start them young over there.
 
ShortField said:
Wouldn’t the check airmen have some say in the “product” of the training department that ultimately makes it to the line? Or are they being pressured by management to force people through the pipe?
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The check airman and instructor ranks are thinning out rapidly as they all get called up to the majors.
 
Vyse said:
The check airman and instructor ranks are thinning out rapidly as they all get called up to the majors.
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no doubt, the training department at Flexjet was ~25 strong(18 challenger 300 instructors), we have lost 6 JUST TO SOUTHWEST in 6 months....I've been in the dept. for 11 months and am already 8/16 challenger instructors. I'ts going to be an interesting year with current hiring standards
 
Acrofox said:
Believe me, nobody needed to 'lead' me to water. I've been aware of the damned water ever since I was a teenager, when I wanted nothing more than to go swimming, only to be told that it was only for rich kids (at least, richer than I). Through almost a quarter of a century in the tech industry, when I kept encountering people who thought that the water had rinsed from them the stench of ignorance, when in fact all it did was get them wet. After sticking my toe in several different 'official' bodies of water and discovering that it wasn't what everybody claimed.

No, I get it. I'm aware that baptism is required by the major airlines, and that they won't take heathens like me because, despite having adequately hydrated all my life, and swum in all the unrecognized ponds, swamps and rivers, I haven't been anointed with Official Holy Water.

So be it.

But there's no need to be condescending about it.

-Fox
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You seem to save a chip on your shoulder about the whole process and that's understandable. It's the same chip that many people have who have not "made it" yet and I think it's the same argument that people try to make when they say they would have already got the job if they were a minority or female. It's a little hard to read through your metaphor but it seems like you're condescending about the process because you don't have what they look for. Does something like a degree help you be a better pilot or prove your ability? No but if you want to make 300k the people who have checked the most boxes get the first opportunity to do so. If I read you wrong I'm sorry but it's just the way it came across to me. If you want to be well compensated go to a LCC and you will fit in with the rest of us just fine because you can bash the " Delta elite " and still make a nice salary.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Did you really just call her condescending in the middle of that incredibly condescending post?
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Got enough popcorn for errbody! BYOB!
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Did you really just call her condescending in the middle of that incredibly condescending post?
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Yeah..... please explain in what way that was incredibly condescending. I would love to hear your take. I know you're all knowing and all powerful so I must be wrong but my reply to her was not meant to be condescending. Those who have extraordinary resumes get called first, it's natural selection. Just look at how much SHT you talk, I imagine that even saying the words Southwest while standing in your cedar lined closet gives you a migraine. There ya go, that's condescending
 
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Well, lets not pretend that getting anywhere in this business doesn't take an incredible amount of plain luck. Those who look at themselves in the mirror and say "I got here because I'm smart, skilled and gosh darn it, people like me" have a skewed perception of things...and probably not coincidentally the worst people to work with.

That said, while luck plays a large role, we all can "modify" our luck to some extent, like my "Uber Sword of Infinite Awesomeness" gives me a +50 modifier against the undead. To wit:

1) Keeping your self out of trouble.
2) Play by the rules, and make sure those under you do as well.
3) Don't say "kcuf" on the PA.
4) If someone says certain attributes are "preferred" (school, experience, etc), then you should try to meet those preferences.

But it still comes down to luck...just make sure you don't have to roll the hard six.
 
Some of the arrogance on this thread is hard to believe. Sometimes, despite doing everything in your power, you get stuck.

I volunteer, go to job fairs, network like crazy and have lots of internals, and so on. Despite this, I’m still at a regional airline after spending 15 years in this business. I want to move on so badly it’s almost painful, while watching some of my co-workers breeze through to a legacy with very little effort and just a few years in this business.

I’m still working hard to move on, and I know someday it will happen. But I really resent it when it’s assumed that some of us long time RJ guys aren’t trying.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Timing too. Not sure if that is also in the luck category? But timing is huge and of course you can't control it. Those starting their careers in 2001 and 2008 had it vastly different than those who just started their careers in 2015-present.
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Pretty much this.

When I started this game in '87, the pipeline was well defined with good flow. CFI at 250, instruct until 1,200, checkrun/freight single until 1,500-1,600, same in the twin until around 2,000. At that point you could go to a small regional/commuter, charter or corporate depending on your inclination and/or connections. You could do the above in 2.5-3 years if you hustled.

If you were in the small commuter stage (402s/Navajos/etc) you could make the leap to a turbine operator at around 2,500 if you didn't go direct, which happened with some of the mom'n'pop operators.

The pipeline was so well defined in my local area that you were essentially prehired by the freight run outfits who had hired guys from your school previously, and all you did was make a call when you hit 1,200 and you were in the next class. If you timed it right, you could go from zero to major in 6-7 years. Military pilots still ran the show, and the 80s were really the first time civilian guys were hired at the top tier places in any significant numbers.

Two things blew up this program...the recession of 1990/Gulf War 1 and the mainline carriers figuring out that they could dump a tremendous amount of flying on to the regionals. But the regionals could only grow so fast, and pipeline got all kinds of messed up.

If you were in the game BY '85-87, you probably did OK, and popped out the other end at a mainline carrier someplace. And by OK I mean that you got to a major with the above timeline, but probably suffered some kind of furlough, pay and benefit/retirement cut, but otherwise did better than the folks behind you, plus if you timed it right, you got an extra 5 years on the back end.

If you got in the game after 87, you wound up getting stuck instructing for 3-4 years. By 1992, the mainline high speed rewind was at full speed, and most places had a kcuf-ton of people on furlough. Even the regionals (the "good ones" anyway) required close to 3500-4000TT and upgrades took forever because no one was going anywhere. The term "languishing" took on new meaning.

The mainline kerfluffle didn't work itself out until around '95, and hiring didn't pick up until '96. Again, unless you were at the top of the food chain when the opportunities happened (hired in '95-97), you wound up getting all kinds of hosed in 9/11/Gulf War 2 and got tagged with an extra 5 years of stagnation when the age 65 thing happened (to be fair, it was stagnation at the mainline).

My contemporaries only FINALLY started to dig themselves out of their stagnation a couple of years ago, finally earning the same money they had made back in 2000.
 
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