Difference between FAR 61 & FAR 141?
- Thread starter Derek_S
- Start date
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
61: Traditional training.
141: Usues an FAA approved (by the local FSDO) syllabus and in "return" the FAA knocks off a few hours of minimum training time for each rating/certificate.
Unless you enrolled and signed a bunch of papers you're more than likely training under part 61.
There is little difference in quality between the two. Both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses.
141: Usues an FAA approved (by the local FSDO) syllabus and in "return" the FAA knocks off a few hours of minimum training time for each rating/certificate.
Unless you enrolled and signed a bunch of papers you're more than likely training under part 61.
There is little difference in quality between the two. Both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses.
Timbuff10
Well-Known Member
I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the 141 route enables you to take out federal loans if you are doing the flight training in conjunction with a degree program? Under 61 I don't think the federal loan is available?
I remember a few years ago I was looking at going to the Mesa Pilot Development school and they said the only way I could do their program was if I was also getting some lame degree they offered. At the time the flying part sounded good but I was just a few months from graduating with a 4 year degree and these guys were telling me their 2 year degree would be better and it was the only way I could get a loan for the flying part.
Anyway I think the 141 route can make it easier to get financing not to mention you can progress faster making it cheaper?
I remember a few years ago I was looking at going to the Mesa Pilot Development school and they said the only way I could do their program was if I was also getting some lame degree they offered. At the time the flying part sounded good but I was just a few months from graduating with a 4 year degree and these guys were telling me their 2 year degree would be better and it was the only way I could get a loan for the flying part.
Anyway I think the 141 route can make it easier to get financing not to mention you can progress faster making it cheaper?
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
NO federal loan may be used for the flight part of flight training. Most people take the "living expense" part of the school loan and use it towards flight training but there is no official way to get a loan for actual flight training (outside places like key bank, and sallie mae).
However, if you are a verteran the GI Bill can be used for post-private certificates/ratings (up to 75% of the costs) as long as it's 141 training.
However, if you are a verteran the GI Bill can be used for post-private certificates/ratings (up to 75% of the costs) as long as it's 141 training.
SFLAX
Well-Known Member
All I know as an instructor is that the paper work with 141 is a pain in the a**. I spend 5 hours a week (unpaid) to get it done. Also the biggest thing is the ground school, most 141 require 75 hours of ground for Private and Instrument. So, that is sometimes hard if it is not full time.
montanapilot
Well-Known Member
FAR Part 142 = makes 141 and 61 look like a bargain.
BoilerPilot2007
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think for the federal loans the real factor is whether you are attending a "traditional" college that is aimed at obtaining a degree. I don't think 61 vs. 141 is a factor, but most schools that offer a degree option are 141 (if not all schools). I could be wrong though.
[/ QUOTE ]
Purdue student flight instruction is operated under part 61. This comes as a shock to a lot of people, but it works very well here.
I think for the federal loans the real factor is whether you are attending a "traditional" college that is aimed at obtaining a degree. I don't think 61 vs. 141 is a factor, but most schools that offer a degree option are 141 (if not all schools). I could be wrong though.
[/ QUOTE ]
Purdue student flight instruction is operated under part 61. This comes as a shock to a lot of people, but it works very well here.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
All I know as an instructor is that the paper work with 141 is a pain in the a**. I spend 5 hours a week (unpaid) to get it done.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm doing paperwork in a student's training record, I get paid for it. Just like doing a logbook endorsement, or showing him/her how to taxi.
Don't shortchange yourself, and treat your students well. Very rarely will a student complain that you're billing them for your time. they understand this from the beginning.
If they don't get that, send them elsewhere.
All I know as an instructor is that the paper work with 141 is a pain in the a**. I spend 5 hours a week (unpaid) to get it done.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm doing paperwork in a student's training record, I get paid for it. Just like doing a logbook endorsement, or showing him/her how to taxi.
Don't shortchange yourself, and treat your students well. Very rarely will a student complain that you're billing them for your time. they understand this from the beginning.
If they don't get that, send them elsewhere.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All I know as an instructor is that the paper work with 141 is a pain in the a**. I spend 5 hours a week (unpaid) to get it done.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm doing paperwork in a student's training record, I get paid for it. Just like doing a logbook endorsement, or showing him/her how to taxi.
Don't shortchange yourself, and treat your students well. Very rarely will a student complain that you're billing them for your time. they understand this from the beginning.
If they don't get that, send them elsewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said! We are professionals and deserve to be treated/paid well. If you educate your students early on about billing practices, things will go smoothly for you in the long run for billing ground time!
Back to the original poster:
Depending on the school, sometimes there is little to no difference in 61 vs. 141. Either way, the school you choose should have a structured syllabus to go by as step-by-step or building-block approach to training. You never want to hear your CFI say as you walk in for a lesson "so what are we doing today?" Ahhh!!
Your CFI should always be prepared and know exactly what is going on with your training. So that said, as long as a syllabus is structured you can't go wrong with either 61 or 141. Here are some distinct adavantages to 141 depending on your situation....
- its an old myth that 141 doesn't allow lesson flexibility. it does! if the school wrote into their TCO's (traning course outlines) that a CFI can't skip lessons, then shame on them! within reason (and for good reasons) at good schools, CFIs can skip ahead to another lesson due to wx, mx or for aircraft equipment. so a well-designed 141 program can certainly be flexible enough to allow your training to go smoothly
- assuming a student goes 141 and gets done with Private in 50 hours, instrument in 35...then they could get the Commercial done in 205 hours! 45 less than Part 61. Notice I said 50 for the Private, the minimum is indeed 35, but realistically most folks need a little more time for the Private. If you can get'er done in 35 hours or close to it...more power to you! The Instrument can easily be obtained in the minimum however. Most Commercial courses are 120 hours long to compensate for the overall reduction in total required for the Commercial. (250tt under part 61 and 190tt for 141)
- indeed if you are former military, the VA could pick up a huge chunk of your flight training! be cautious though, just b/c a school is 141, doesn't necessarily mean they are VA Approved. and be sure to ask them exactly which programs are VA approved!
Off the top of my head (its been a looong day!), those are a few big items for career-bound folks that can work well if you go 141 vs. 61. However, make sure you talk to a CFI who knows both programs well! Don't just listen to marketing schemes. For instance, if you did your PPL & IRA ratings under 61 and have about 150+ hours, you probably don't want to enroll in a Commercial 141 program, since it will likely be a mandatory 120 hours of training. Thus putting your at 270 hours for your Commercial instead of 250 if you stick with 61.
I hope this helps some of you out there...just thought I would share some objective knowledge of both programs. By the way, there is certainly no 'penalty' for going 61 from 141 -you keep all your hours and don't have to worry about transferring hours. So to sum up, it all just depends where you are in your training and specific programs. A lot of schools enroll you in 141 just b/c there is no difference in their 61 vs. 141 program, which is just fine as long as you are informed of what is going on.
Cheers!
[ QUOTE ]
All I know as an instructor is that the paper work with 141 is a pain in the a**. I spend 5 hours a week (unpaid) to get it done.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm doing paperwork in a student's training record, I get paid for it. Just like doing a logbook endorsement, or showing him/her how to taxi.
Don't shortchange yourself, and treat your students well. Very rarely will a student complain that you're billing them for your time. they understand this from the beginning.
If they don't get that, send them elsewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said! We are professionals and deserve to be treated/paid well. If you educate your students early on about billing practices, things will go smoothly for you in the long run for billing ground time!
Back to the original poster:
Depending on the school, sometimes there is little to no difference in 61 vs. 141. Either way, the school you choose should have a structured syllabus to go by as step-by-step or building-block approach to training. You never want to hear your CFI say as you walk in for a lesson "so what are we doing today?" Ahhh!!
- its an old myth that 141 doesn't allow lesson flexibility. it does! if the school wrote into their TCO's (traning course outlines) that a CFI can't skip lessons, then shame on them! within reason (and for good reasons) at good schools, CFIs can skip ahead to another lesson due to wx, mx or for aircraft equipment. so a well-designed 141 program can certainly be flexible enough to allow your training to go smoothly
- assuming a student goes 141 and gets done with Private in 50 hours, instrument in 35...then they could get the Commercial done in 205 hours! 45 less than Part 61. Notice I said 50 for the Private, the minimum is indeed 35, but realistically most folks need a little more time for the Private. If you can get'er done in 35 hours or close to it...more power to you! The Instrument can easily be obtained in the minimum however. Most Commercial courses are 120 hours long to compensate for the overall reduction in total required for the Commercial. (250tt under part 61 and 190tt for 141)
- indeed if you are former military, the VA could pick up a huge chunk of your flight training! be cautious though, just b/c a school is 141, doesn't necessarily mean they are VA Approved. and be sure to ask them exactly which programs are VA approved!
Off the top of my head (its been a looong day!), those are a few big items for career-bound folks that can work well if you go 141 vs. 61. However, make sure you talk to a CFI who knows both programs well! Don't just listen to marketing schemes. For instance, if you did your PPL & IRA ratings under 61 and have about 150+ hours, you probably don't want to enroll in a Commercial 141 program, since it will likely be a mandatory 120 hours of training. Thus putting your at 270 hours for your Commercial instead of 250 if you stick with 61.
I hope this helps some of you out there...just thought I would share some objective knowledge of both programs. By the way, there is certainly no 'penalty' for going 61 from 141 -you keep all your hours and don't have to worry about transferring hours. So to sum up, it all just depends where you are in your training and specific programs. A lot of schools enroll you in 141 just b/c there is no difference in their 61 vs. 141 program, which is just fine as long as you are informed of what is going on.
Cheers!