Departure under Class B

lhornaday

lhornaday

Well-Known Member
When departing a class D airport (KFTW) I was cleared on course, but to remain outide of Class B airspace. The on course heading of 090 degrees would have put me into the KDFW/KDAL surface area.

I skirted around to the south but still had to deal with overlying airspace at altitudes as low as 2,500' MSL along my route, mixed with 2,000' antennas. I was almost clear of the airspace before I got a climb clearance into Class B. Aircraft was a PA32.

Questions are:

What is expected in regards to the heading to be flown when cleared on course but not cleared to enter airspace?

Flying under Class B in radio contact and approaching a Class D airport, you have to be talking to the tower to get entry requirements met, correct? I repeatedly got cleared on course instructions while in flight that would have put me in Class D airspace.
 
This was discussed pretty thoroughly recently. IIRC, according to a precedent a decade ago, a heading and altitude that takes you into the Bravo constitutes an implied clearance. However, according to an interpretation a few years ago, you must get a specific Bravo clearance; therefore, you are expected to turn to avoid the surface area or descend to avoid a shelf.

As for entering the Delta, at least around here, approach has LOAs with all the local towers and they effectively own the Delta above 2300' AGL and can clear you through it without ever talking to tower.
 
Gotta get that clearance verbalized, but you can always respond with "understand I am cleared into class Bravo?"
 
lhornaday said:
When departing a class D airport (KFTW) I was cleared on course, but to remain outide of Class B airspace. The on course heading of 090 degrees would have put me into the KDFW/KDAL surface area.

I skirted around to the south but still had to deal with overlying airspace at altitudes as low as 2,500' MSL along my route, mixed with 2,000' antennas. I was almost clear of the airspace before I got a climb clearance into Class B. Aircraft was a PA32.

Questions are:

What is expected in regards to the heading to be flown when cleared on course but not cleared to enter airspace?

Flying under Class B in radio contact and approaching a Class D airport, you have to be talking to the tower to get entry requirements met, correct? I repeatedly got cleared on course instructions while in flight that would have put me in Class D airspace.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that unless they say cleared into Class B or give you a heading and altitude you are not cleared into Class B. I believe that if you are talking to approach/departure you are cleared intoClass D.
 
VFR correct?

Given that "on course" means nothing except use your own navigation. Just because you were given on course doesn't mean you can fly through protected airspace. (Would you fly through a hot restricted area VFR because ATC gave you on course?)
 
The heading and altitude wasn't assigned and I was told not to enter Class B. I wasn't sure if they cared that I was going to go on a heading 180 for a while after stating I was needing 090. Next time I'll just give them a course I would like to leave the Class B on.

It through me off because they asked for my on course heading several times, then they replied that I was cleared for it. How are we to know which underlying class D airports when can fly through while on approach freq?


boondr said:
VFR correct?
Given that "on course" means nothing except use your own navigation.
Click to expand...

Yes, it was VFR.

Thanks all.
 
when VFR on radar FF,IF the controller DOSE NOT tell you to remain CLEAR of class D you can fly through.it is the radar controller that has to coordinate with the class D controller for the over flight or tell you to remain clear.this is in the 7110 but you might run into a controller that dosent know this rule and might give you a hard time,but if they did not say remain clear its not the pilots problem you have the rules on your side.
 
Operating in Class D airspace without talking to the tower for the airport in that airspace is a point that can be argued. According to 91.129:
(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

What does the "facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services" mean? You can argue it mean the tower for the primary airport in that airspace, and only that tower. You can also argue that the facility providing radar services for that airspace fits the bill here.

According to the 7110.65:
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS​
a.​
​
​
​
​
Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach
control tower on an individual aircraft basis before
issuing a clearance which would require flight within
a surface area for which the tower has responsibility
unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.​

REFERENCE​
​
​
​
​
FAAO
JO 7210.3, Para 4-3-1, Letters of Agreement.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport
in ClassE Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.​

b.​
​
​
​
​
Coordinate with the appropriate control tower
for transit authorization when you are providing radar
traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter
another facility's airspace.​

NOTE​
​
​
​
​
The
pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.​

c.​
​
​
​
​
Transfer communications to the appropriate
facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface
area for which the tower has responsibility.​

REFERENCE​
​
​
​
​
FAAO
JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-17, Radio Communications Transfer.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 3-1-11, Surface Area Restrictions.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-6-1, Application.​

14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.



According to the note, the pilot does not need to obtain their own clearance. Unfortunately, while controllers are bound by the .65, pilots are not. While I see both sides to this argument, I do agree that according to 91.129, a facility providing radar services would constitute as an ATC facility providing radar services.

That being said, when I am flying, and I am unsure, a quick key of the mic "verify N12345 cleared through the xxx Class D airspace" would be prudent (I know I kind of contradicted myself). When I am flying, I always try to remember that I am bound by the FAR's. When I am in the tower, the 7110.65 is the go to book. Remember, CYA!

If anyone has an interpretation for 91.129, please post it. It is now 5:46AM and I am not about to look for it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top