Departure Procedures for turboprops

[rherrick]

So the other day I got into a discussion with the tower controllers over these two departure procedures:

View attachment 00582SUMMA.PDF

View attachment 00582HAROB.PDF

View attachment 00582HAROB_C.PDF

My question the JC world is this. On the SUMMA Depature is there anything saying that a turboprop can fly this departure from SEA? On the HAROB Departure, it is an FMS departure, can a turboprop that has an fms, file and depart on this departure? The tower controllers tell me that a turboprop is not allowed on either because both DPs are turbojet restricted only. Comments are enjoyed.

 

[braunpilot]

I see no reason on either of those DPs why they are restricted. Maybe someone from SEATAC ATC can answer the question.

To any ATCer, is there separate information that you have that a pilots doesn't when it comes to DPs, STARs, or Approaches? I would think not but I am curious now.

 

[MikeD]

There's nothing in the notes regarding any aircraft restrictions, ie- "TURBOJET ONLY", or something liket that. Since I have before seen those types of restrictions on SIDs, if they're not there, I assume they don't apply.

 

[rherrick]

I am an approach controller there and all I know for those DPs is what I put on there. We see the plates as pilots see them. It is not stated in our LOA that props cannot be put on these DPs. I was wondering if it says somewhere on the plate itself if there is a restriction? I found no such wording but maybe I was missing something only a pilot would know by looking at the plate.

 

[boondr]

There's nothing in the notes regarding any aircraft restrictions, ie- "TURBOJET ONLY", or something liket that. Since I have before seen those types of restrictions on SIDs, if they're not there, I assume they don't apply.

:yeahthat:

If it were restricted to turbojet aircraft only it would state that. Plenty of SIDS and STARS, RNAV or not have those restrictions. These do not.

 

[Juliet Lima]

sometimes it's a facility-to-facility thing. i don't know the answer to this SPECIFIC question. but where i'm at, a jet and a turbo-prop that have the exact same equipment onboard are NOT allowed to fly the same departure because the next ATC facility (ZLA) wants the jets and props delivered on different routes and altitudes.

so even if you are CAPABLE, doesn't mean ATC is ALLOWED to issue it.

aircraft filed speed is usually a determining factor for allowing aircraft on a certain route, or in your case a specific departure.

 

[tykrtr]

To any ATCer, is there separate information that you have that a pilots doesn't when it comes to DPs, STARs, or Approaches? I would think not but I am curious now.

Sorry to be the enabler of a hijack, but there are LOTS of routes that ATC gets that are not published. Often facilities have routes that will come out when certain parameters are met (filed over a certain route, or to a certain VOR above a certain altitude). They don't include the entire route like the preferred routes in the A/FD, just a portion of a route that is required for the next sector. In our area we call them Preferred Departure Routes. One route we had was as short as "V11." We've gotten rid of a few that we've used, but I've also asked facilies why we get certain routes.

For example, at Louisville we get the following clearance, "DERBY1 departure, V4 PXV, then as filed" so I have to look up the DERBY CITY 1: http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1004/00239DERBYCITY.PDF , then grab a low chart to find V4, where we can go direct as filed (above 180), then I could re-program the GPS. They ALWAYS issue this clearance, so I asked why V4 couldn't be printed on the departure procedure to make it easier. They told me that it's a "vector" sid, not a "pilot nav" sid. So I still don't know why convenient information like an airway you're going to vector us to join every time can't be included.

To tie this in with the OP (and end the hijack), SEA probably has similar agreements with the center that turboprops (or aircraft filed at certain altitudes or airspeeds) get different SIDS than turbojets. This may not be published, however, any route you file will be changed when you get your clearance to the SID that the center wants your type aircraft on, then tied into your originally filed route later.

 

[RRPower]

so I asked why V4 couldn't be printed on the departure procedure to make it easier.

You should look at Norfolk (KORF) and their KISR1 DP (http://dtpp.myairplane.com/pdfs/00291KISRR.PDF). Even though it is charted, sort of, they give your clearance like, cleared to PHL, via KISR1 dp SCHOL, then the SBY200 radial to join the SWL219, J121 then AF....WTF Over? If you don't know it is coming, you are just sitting there with your mouth on the floor like...can you repeat please?

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. They do this same thing in KCLT. All the Dash8's that leave get a 90 degree turn off the runway and are told to maintain 4,000 while all the jets get RNAV off the runway. The Dash's can DO RNAV off the runway but they don't let them. Even though a Dash can maintain 250kts fairly easily, they do not have the high performace capability that the jets do and so to keep everyone uniform they only let the jets do it. At least that is how a controller explained it to me in CLT. But for any of you that know about the barbie jet -200, in the summer it is like fly a C150 with 2 fat people in it. I am surprised they don't make us do a 90 degree turn off the runway....

 

[minitour]

You should look at Norfolk (KORF) and their KISR1 DP (http://dtpp.myairplane.com/pdfs/00291KISRR.PDF). Even though it is charted, sort of, they give your clearance like, cleared to PHL, via KISR1 dp SCHOL, then the SBY200 radial to join the SWL219, J121 then AF....WTF Over? If you don't know it is coming, you are just sitting there with your mouth on the floor like...can you repeat please?

Got almost that exact clearance the other day going ORF-TTN.

I had the enroute chart all pulled out so I could plug in our box (which doesn't have airways...) before I realized it was on the DP. Lame.

-mini