Departing IFR, unable to contact departure, TFR ahead, RWY heading

Ajax

Ajax

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Had this happen last night. Departed IFR out of ADS, assigned RWY heading and 2,000. There is a TFR a few miles south of ADS. It took us 3 calls before we heard back from departure, putting us too close to the TFR for my comfort (I would guess at the closest we got within 1-2 miles of it). On our 3rd call we were given a climbing turn that would put us above and to the west of the TFR.

If we weren't able to get ahold of departure our assigned heading would have put us inside the TFR. However, if we would have veered off course to clear the TFR we would have deviated from our clearance. My student asked me what I would have done if I wasn't able to get in contact with departure and I told him that I would have maintained my last assigned heading and altitude until given further clearance.

Is this correct, and what is your opinion on this? I want to make sure that if this ever happens I do (and teach) the safest and best course of action.
 
Ajax BU said:
Is this correct, and what is your opinion on this? I want to make sure that if this ever happens I do (and teach) the safest and best course of action.
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VMC? I'd stay clear of the TFR and look for an uncontrolled field if I couldn't get in touch with departure.

IMC? I'd fly what I was told to expect in the clearance...
 
I would deviate from my clearance to avoid the TFR. Land, file an ASRS and potentially a complaint with ATC.

Also, what were your other options in the "AVEF MEA" hierarchy? Any that included an airway avoiding it? While it isn't quite lost comms you should be covered by that...

Another option is, IIRC, if you are under positive control (which you were not at that point), avoiding a TFR (depending on what it's for) becomes ATC responsibility. If they chose to vector you through it, you are IFR, you have clearance. This is at least the way it was explained to me in SoCal with the Mickey "TFR". YMMV
 
I know that TFR very well. I've been through it several times. On the ILS to 33 you have to penetrate it.

The TFR text fine print says flights are prohibited inside unless authorized by ATC. I'm going out on a limb here and assuming that your departure clearance took this into consideration. (RWH climb to 2000?)

I would do as you did an just continue with your clearance until getting in contact. Your clearance is your place in their airspace where they expect you to be.




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Ajax BU said:
Is this correct, and what is your opinion on this? I want to make sure that if this ever happens I do (and teach) the safest and best course of action.
Click to expand...

From what you describe (departing south, runway heading) I'll assume you are referring to the TFR that is over the home of President Bush.

That's a "no pilot my operate unless authorized by ATC" one. Runway heading to 2,000 is the authorization. Please fly it :)

Note: I'm not a CFI, but I have dealt with this TFR - as it nearly encircles the FAF for the ILS at the crossing altitude. You can be there if any instruction or clearance puts you there.
 
We were VMC

My clearance, if I remember correctly (I don't have my kneeboard with me at the moment) was radar vectors, jpool4.act
 
I think P areas are different, but a TFR, if IFR on an ATC clearance is legal (or for that matter if you're squawking and talking regardless). If you have a second radio I'd monitor guard and continue with the clearance.

In our world ideally, we treat every airplane in that close of proximity to a bad place to be with the sense of what if communications fail. Part of that is built into our procedures.
 
Yes, that is a sticky situation on departure. I would have flown the assigned departure clearance (runway heading to 2000) and continued trying to contact departure. I do not know the area, but in looking the TFR is only SFC-1500MSL. It's a good 5 miles south of the airport so you should have been able to climb to 2000 by then. If the TFR had a higher/unrestricted altitude, I think ATC would not have given you an initial departure clearance that sets you up to bust it.

If it became a true lost comms scenario, I would have either proceeded direct to NELYN (did the initial clearance say vectors to NELYN?), or provided myself with a vector to join the airway before NELYN.
 
Whoops, you're right on the AGL. I'd be interested to hear from someone at the tower or approach around there as to how they would handle that situation then, or if it would even be an issue.
 
TripSix said:
From what you describe (departing south, runway heading) I'll assume you are referring to the TFR that is over the home of President Bush.

That's a "no pilot my operate unless authorized by ATC" one. Runway heading to 2,000 is the authorization. Please fly it :)

Note: I'm not a CFI, but I have dealt with this TFR - as it nearly encircles the FAF for the ILS at the crossing altitude. You can be there if any instruction or clearance puts you there.
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Ditto Disneyland, every time I go to Long Beach.
 
If coms are lost and you are in VMC the proper procedure would be to land as soon as practical while maintaining visual. If you are IMC you are to continue via last routing and altitude cleared, unless your cleared altitude puts you below the MEA for part of the route. If that is the case, you should climb to the MEA at the appropriate part of the route.

What if you were heading for an obstruction and not a TFR? The proper procedure if comms are lost while on an assigned heading is to proceed direct to the next assigned fix. In this case it would be the first fix on jpool4. I would also comply with any altitude restrictions on that SID.

The main thing to remember during lost comms is to be predictable, so that the controller can anticipate your next move and keep other aircraft out of your way.

Edit:All this assumes you have exhausted all methods of reestablishing comms or time before action is necessary to prevent danger to the flight
 
Just curious, was the tower open? If so did you ever switch back to them and ask them to wake up departure? Some times towers can give the wrong freq out of habit. If departure is not answering the tower should be able to reach them via land line and possibly provide a vector until you get it sorted out. Also if you have say 134.9 for departure and its not the same that's listed on the 10-9 or 20-9 in this case. Try the one that is listed, 124.3 for regional dep out of KADS. All of these tricks have worked for me in the past. With that particular airspace, as congested as it is, assuming your radio is transmitting, some one will be on a freq some where. This comes from a pilot, not controller point of view.

And Autothrust Blue, what issue do you have at LGB. I've been based there for three years and the TFR hasn't been an issue. Just curious that's all.
 
PositionAndHold said:
Just curious, was the tower open? If so did you ever switch back to them and ask them to wake up departure? Some times towers can give the wrong freq out of habit. If departure is not answering the tower should be able to reach them via land line and possibly provide a vector until you get it sorted out. Also if you have say 134.9 for departure and its not the same that's listed on the 10-9 or 20-9 in this case. Try the one that is listed, 124.3 for regional dep out of KADS. All of these tricks have worked for me in the past. With that particular airspace, as congested as it is, assuming your radio is transmitting, some one will be on a freq some where. This comes from a pilot, not controller point of view.

And Autothrust Blue, what issue do you have at LGB. I've been based there for three years and the TFR hasn't been an issue. Just curious that's all.
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None, because I'm on a clearance 99% of the time I'm down there, and often am vectored thru the TFR.
 
PositionAndHold said:
Just curious, was the tower open? If so did you ever switch back to them and ask them to wake up departure? Some times towers can give the wrong freq out of habit. If departure is not answering the tower should be able to reach them via land line and possibly provide a vector until you get it sorted out. Also if you have say 134.9 for departure and its not the same that's listed on the 10-9 or 20-9 in this case. Try the one that is listed, 124.3 for regional dep out of KADS. All of these tricks have worked for me in the past. With that particular airspace, as congested as it is, assuming your radio is transmitting, some one will be on a freq some where. This comes from a pilot, not controller point of view.

And Autothrust Blue, what issue do you have at LGB. I've been based there for three years and the TFR hasn't been an issue. Just curious that's all.
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I was just about to go back to tower when approach finally called back and we were on 124.3. This was more of a "what if" scenario, in the case that approach never answered back.
 
I'm also of the opinion that you should follow your last assigned heading. I wouldn't deviate from my clearance for an imaginary brick wall. Doesn't matter VMC or IMC.
 
Airspace separation is on ATC when you are operating on an IFR clearance (and following their instructions, of course).


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In a true lost comms I would fly to TTT and begin the JPOOL4, assuming of course that I am IMC

Regarding the obstruction as mentioned above, I don't see the similarity. Regardless of clearance I will never be cleared to fly through an obstruction, i could be cleared through a TFR
 
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