Depart at your own risk?

[MikeD]

That's what got me thinking about it, I spent most of Friday sitting at Felts waiting for avionics work and the Medstar chopper(s) [not sure how many they have] were flying a bunch, as was Sheriff One, and I've heard it when they land on hospitals and aprons at GEG and other airports.

I figured it was a required phraseology thing, just wasn't sure of the purpose... but the "area not in sight" explanation makes sense I guess. Hard to clear an area you cannot see I guess.

Area not in sight is what I was referring to in my post. Im in their Class D airspace, but am not landing on their airport. Therefore, they can't really clear me to land, as they can't see where Im landing. They can give me winds/WX and any other advisory info, but they aren't going to formally clear me to land or depart an area they don't control and see.

 

[FM_Weasel]

The same verbiage is also used when a runway is closed or unsafe and the pilot insists on landing anyway.

3−3−2. CLOSED/UNSAFE RUNWAY
INFORMATION

If an aircraft requests to takeoff, land, or
touch-and-go on a closed or unsafe runway, inform
the pilot the runway is closed or unsafe, and

a. If the pilot persists in his/her request, quote
him/her the appropriate parts of the NOTAM
applying to the runway and inform him/her that a
clearance cannot be issued.

b. Then, if the pilot insists and in your opinion the
intended operation would not adversely affect other
traffic, inform him/her that the operation will be at
his/her own risk.

PHRASEOLOGY−
RUNWAY (runway number) CLOSED/UNSAFE.
If appropriate, (quote NOTAM information),
UNABLE TO ISSUE DEPARTURE/LANDING/TOUCH−
AND−GO CLEARANCE.
DEPARTURE/LANDING/TOUCH−AND−GO WILL BE
AT YOUR OWN RISK.

c. Except as permitted by para 4−8−7, Side-step
Maneuver, where parallel runways are served by
separate ILS/MLS systems and one of the runways is
closed, the ILS/MLS associated with the closed
runway should not be used for approaches unless not
using the ILS/MLS would have an adverse impact on
the operational efficiency of the airport.

 

[flightduck]

One word: lawyers

One acronym: CYA

Eggzackly.

Many things that make no sense are legal-speak.
So if the Felts-Grass-Cessna had a mishap, ATC could be sued - and likely lose - under the "no one told me" excuse.

i.e."This coffee is HOT."

 

[msmspilot]

Eggzackly.

Many things that make no sense are legal-speak.
So if the Felts-Grass-Cessna had a mishap, ATC could be sued - and likely lose - under the "no one told me" excuse.

i.e."This coffee is HOT."

Do we really have to have the discussion about the coffee again? That McDonalds had been warned multiple times that their coffee was too hot and the woman had pretty large 2nd degree burns from it. And all she asked for was actual medical costs until McD's told her to go stuff it.

 

[FM_Weasel]

I don't think there's any reason to turn this discussion into a litigation debate. ATC shouldn't be able to clear you for operations on non-maintained ramps/terrain any more than they should be able to clear you to land on someone's roof, or car, or dog. This is verbiage that's used when the pilot wants to put their aircraft somewhere other than an approved movement area.

 

[MikeD]

I don't think there's any reason to turn this discussion into a litigation debate. ATC shouldn't be able to clear you for operations on non-maintained ramps/terrain any more than they should be able to clear you to land on someone's roof, or car, or dog. This is verbiage that's used when the pilot wants to put their aircraft somewhere other than an approved movement area.

Completely agree. And I have no issue with it at all when I receive that clearance. There's no reason ATC should have liability if Im departing from a helipad at a hospital thats 3 miles from their field and only happens to be within their Class D, or from some part of their own field that they can't see. I see it as pretty much a type of "due regard" on my part.

 

[The Fez]

The "at your own risk" phraseology is standard practice for the ramp where I operate at KSDL (non-movement area). However, there have been some inconsistencies in what I've been told by some instructors as far as the answer to the question, "If tower cleared you into the airspace but never said anything about 'cleared to land' or 'landing will be at your own risk', can you still land there?"

I've always said "yes". As far as I've always understood it, my landing on the non-movement area or just outside the airfield boundary on Thunderbird Rd makes no difference to the tower, as they don't control it. Am I correct on this?

NOTE: Just want to have a clear understanding of this, since my CFI (Rotorcraft) checkride is on 9 Aug and I'm still getting inconsistent info from a few guys. The book can say a lot of things, but when the question is wrapped into a "your radio is dead, tower isn't giving you light gun signals, you're running out of gas, can you land on the non-movement area ramp?" scenario, it's nice to have a simple answer.

 

[elmetal]

but when the question is wrapped into a "your radio is dead, tower isn't giving you light gun signals, you're running out of gas, can you land on the non-movement area ramp?" scenario, it's nice to have a simple answer.

FAR 91.3

if you're in an emergency situation I'd land first answer questions later.

paperwork is better than a funeral

EDIT: But I do get your need for a straight answer as to a "not so much emergency" type situation.

 

[flightduck]

Be interested hearing from any actual air traffic controllers, why the phraseology.

So - KTIW had a recent runway overhaul.
Taxiway was commissioned as the active runway; and the taxiway was being refurbished simultaneously, so takeoff/landing overflight of work crews/equipment was a matter of routine.
Each and every takeoff/landing, tower specifically stated: "xxxx feet available, takeoff/land at your own risk."

As takeoff/landing is at our own risk anyway each and every time, why purposefully state so in this particular case, when the taxiway is a commissioned legal runway?

Any ATC-ers to enlighten?

 

[MikeD]

Be interested hearing from any actual air traffic controllers, why the phraseology.

A number of them have already responded here.

 

[flightduck]

A number of them have already responded here.

But I'ma slow child, hep me bro!

No, seriously Ace - a legal runway here in this example, perfectly legal in full view of the tower, but each and every time in this specific case, controllers specifically stated: "own risk."
What is the specific tipping point that would cause a controller to specify this? Why at this time, and not others?

May be of only academic interest, but (sadly) a thinking man I am....

===================

On the other hand, if there is NOT a logic, that in itself would be most illuminating.

 

[FM_Weasel]

The book doesn't state that verbiage should be used in your case. Perhaps it's a local procedure, you could call the facility and ask for clarification.

 

[brown1]

Area not in sight is what I was referring to in my post. Im in their Class D airspace, but am not landing on their airport. Therefore, they can't really clear me to land, as they can't see where Im landing. They can give me winds/WX and any other advisory info, but they aren't going to formally clear me to land or depart an area they don't control and see.

How about taking off from a helipad on top of a building within controlled airspace, miles from the main airport? Call tower before lifting off?

 

[MikeD]

How about taking off from a helipad on top of a building within controlled airspace, miles from the main airport? Call tower before lifting off?

If Im within the airport's Class D, I give the tower a call because Im going to be lifting off within his airspace, just not at his airport. If outside that, then not necessary.

 

[rframe]

How about taking off from a helipad on top of a building within controlled airspace, miles from the main airport? Call tower before lifting off?

If departing within Class D or C but not at the primary airport, you do not need clearance to depart, but should call tower as soon as practical after departing. However, I would think there are few cases where you wouldn't be able to reach tower before departing so it would seem to make common sense to call them before departing.



14 CFR 91.129(c)(2)(ii)

(2) Departing flight. Each person— (i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class D airspace area; or
(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.