Delta's New 717

ATN_Pilot said:
Wrong. SWA signed a process agreement that included arbitration if the pilots couldn't come to a deal. Instead of sticking to their word, they threw the agreement out the window and started issuing threats if we didn't take their cram-down. This from an airline that claims that their number one guiding principal is "the golden rule."

Sorry, Don, but you can't spin this one.
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Except your pilot group voluntarily voted in the SLI without testing the company on the issue. Management made a treat and your pilot group caved, voting in the integration.
 
jtrain609 said:
Except your pilot group voluntarily voted in the SLI without testing the company on the issue. Management made a treat and your pilot group caved, voting in the integration.
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Which doesn't change the fact that the "golden rule" airline threatened to eliminate everyone's job if they didn't cave.

I voted no, and obviously I place most of the blame for where we are on the pilots who were so scared that they voted in favor. But management also gets the blame for such an evil way of conducting business, especially when they put themselves on such a pedestal with all of this "golden rule" nonsense.
 
jtrain609 said:
Except your pilot group voluntarily voted in the SLI without testing the company on the issue. Management made a treat and your pilot group caved, voting in the integration.
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What a jerk... it makes no difference to you, so why kick em when theyre down?
 
jwp_145 said:
What a jerk... it makes no difference to you, so why kick em when theyre down?
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Because details matter.

The TWA guys got stapled to the AA list and then took all the furloughs after 9/11. They were, in fact, so sold out that ALPA has lost the DFR suit from the TWA pilots.

That's a world of difference from what happened at AirTran, where the SLI went out to a vote with the pilot group and they voted in their ken integration. That was entirely voluntary.

Folks like to make up their own reality and then trumpet it as if it were gospel, and that's unacceptable. The AirTran guys got the raw deal, but they did also didn't put up a fight.

Funny enough, the guy that DID put up a fight, and rallied against that SLI was @ATN_Pilot. And then when he got sent through the ringer, he manned up and decided to vote with his feet.

But revisionist history on what happened isn't helpful. Todd fought the good fight and lost, and now he's doing what he thinks is right by bailing out. If the rest of his colleagues had those kind of balls, i believe they'd be in a different position right now.

We're dealing with people that will slit our collective throats in order to leverage their position. Unless we're willing to do the same, and if more people aren't willing to do what Todd did, and is doing now, we will continue to tie our own noose, and there will be nobody to blame but ourselves.
 
While I agree with all of that, I think it's important to call out the hypocrisy and point out that SWA is not the "golden rule" airline that they want people to believe they are. If they want to be "people that will slit our collective throats," then let's call them that and point out that their vaunted culture is a lie. Let's not let people like Don continue to hand out the kool aid and allow management to keep up the charade. People who act like scum should be called out for acting like scum. Even if the final blame rests with the people who didn't have the fortitude to stand up for themselves.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
While I agree with all of that, I think it's important to call out the hypocrisy and point out that SWA is not the "golden rule" airline that they want people to believe they are. If they want to be "people that will slit our collective throats," then let's call them that and point out that their vaunted culture is a lie. Let's not let people like Don continue to hand out the kool aid and allow management to keep up the charade. People who act like scum should be called out for acting like scum. Even if the final blame rests with the people who didn't have the fortitude to stand up for themselves.
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Without a doubt. There are no friends in business, only associates that are either useful or detrimental to your position. The sooner we realize that, as a group of people, the better.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yes, that's the rule we all know that management actually plays by. But it's not the rule they claim to play by at SWA.
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If I was ever in management, I'd be up-front about it.

"We're going to make a poop-ton of money; you can play along or play elsewhere."
 
Derg said:
AA screwed TWA so bad, it actually made it a little simpler for the rest of us.

But the SWA/ATN thing was a cram-down almost to MuseAir levels.
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Plenty of nAAtives got screwed there too.
<----- one of them.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
If I was ever in management, I'd be up-front about it.

"We're going to make a poop-ton of money; you can play along or play elsewhere."
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I much preferred dealing with the Lorenzo stooges. They were always pretty honest about being a-holes. They'd even do the whole song-and-dance of yelling and screaming and telling you just how worthless you were and how easy it was to replace you. It was all out in the open, and I much preferred it that way. Much easier to deal with a-holes who are obviously a-holes and have no problem showing it. What I absolutely despise is the good-ole-boy, pat-you-on-the-back, we're all buddies, fakery. Both because its just so smarmy and obviously fake, but also because far too many rank-and-file pilots fall for that crap.
 
Oh, were you in a pilot union?


:D


(And I'd better stop there or I'm going to get myself banned!)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I much preferred dealing with the Lorenzo stooges. They were always pretty honest about being a-holes. They'd even do the whole song-and-dance of yelling and screaming and telling you just how worthless you were and how easy it was to replace you. It was all out in the open, and I much preferred it that way. Much easier to deal with a-holes who are obviously a-holes and have no problem showing it. What I absolutely despise is the good-ole-boy, pat-you-on-the-back, we're all buddies, fakery. Both because its just so smarmy and obviously fake, but also because far too many rank-and-file pilots fall for that crap.
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The latter is very prevalent in corporate aviation where we deal directly with the C*Os. It's laughable when the pilots fall for it even going so far as considering them a friend. I like a level a respect for each other at a distance equal to the VIP seat to the cockpit.
 
mikecweb said:
The latter is very prevalent in corporate aviation where we deal directly with the C*Os. It's laughable when the pilots fall for it even going so far as considering them a friend. I like a level a respect for each other at a distance equal to the VIP seat to the cockpit.
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Yep. It's part of the bigger overall problem of pilots viewing themselves as white collar executives, instead of realizing the reality that they are blue collar members of organized labor, no different than an HVAC technician or a plumber. Just because you make six figures and don't get your hands dirty at work doesn't make you a white collar workers. The failure to realize that is one of our biggest problems as a profession.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yep. It's part of the bigger overall problem of pilots viewing themselves as white collar executives, instead of realizing the reality that they are blue collar members of organized labor, no different than an HVAC technician or a plumber. Just because you make six figures and don't get your hands dirty at work doesn't make you a white collar workers. The failure to realize that is one of our biggest problems as a profession.
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It's interesting how many pilots get downright personally offended if this comparison is made of them, when I've ever said it to them. I try to explain that what I mean is that they're simply blue collar workers who happen to be wearing a white colored shirt; ie- status of where they fit in the worker/management relationship, not a criticism or hit on them personally or professionally.
 
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